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what is anarchy to you

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Anxiety69, Nov 10, 2009.

  1. backtothestoneage

    backtothestoneageMember Forum Member


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    Nov 15, 2009
     
    I am not really following this discussion very closely.....sorry if I don't have any profound statements to make.
     
  2. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    distractions
     
  3. Spider

    SpiderExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Sep 3, 2009
     
    I'm sorry to say Jack, but exclusive attitudes like yours are the reason for the "circle jerk". You're all about the revolution, but then your saying "you can't come because your parents are rich, you can't come because you are a humanist, you can't come because you like peace" How can there be a worthwhile revolution if all but a minority of working class people with a very narrow set of anarchy definitions are excluded? If anything is a "masturbatory" stance it's one that shouts people down for nnot being committed to a revolution that about 6 people worldwide qualify for.
     
  4. Extinction

    ExtinctionExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 1, 2009
     
    Anarchy to me means freedom. Plain and simple, and also, I think of it as a great way to meet likeminded people, and have a good time.

    I have noticed that (as with anything else) there always seems to be a group of better than thou anarchists.

    For example, I got into a huge argument with another anarchist about which forms of anarchy we adhere to. I consider myself to be an anarchist pacifist/anarchist collectivist. He is a staunch supporter of anarcho communism. Basically, he told me that the only way to achive anarchy would be with anarcho communism, and that if I didn't support his ideals, I wasn't a "real" anarchist. And to my dismay, three other people went to his side and ganged up on me. This is something that makes me mad. No matter what type of anarchy we adhere to, I think we should all be united.

    Just a story, have any of you run into the same thing?
     
  5. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_boneExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    Jack you are a grade A moron.

    Don't fucking tell me what anarchism is, because there is no definition of anarchism. If there was we wouldnt be discussing it. Just because your lord and savior Bakunin was a closet communist, doesnt mean we all are. Would you say all individualists are not anarchists? So I guess calling Godwin and Thoreau anarchists is a mistake, right?

    Anarchism is living without government, it has nothing to do with collectivism or individualism.

    For such a hardcore elite anarchist you sure don't seem to know much about it's history. Most importantly that there has never been a clear definition of anarchism that has been agreed on.

    Furthermore you're hierarchy is in complete contrast to anarchism. You believe "only my way is right" and "Im a real anarchist" and "If someones racist Ill kick their ass"...Thats not freedom my friend, that's your own mini fascism.

    The difference between American/British anarchists compared to those of Russia, cuba, mexico etc. is that here Freedom IS the goal. In most other places a better life in general is the goal. I cant kill off the American inside me that says "leave me alone, I want to be free".

    This is all I will say to you. I can't handle reverting to shit I should only have to tell a n00b. But you can continue your infighting and see how much closer it brings you to revolution. Libertarians may not be considered true anarchists by you, but theyre getting further than any of your "Battle in seattle" types are because they dont act like children (i.e. you).
     
  6. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_boneExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    Oh, and the other thing.......I'm not fucking middle class. I grew up in Hollywood in the 1990s (go youtube a video of Hollywood in the early 90s and you'll see what type of craphole it was). My mom was an elementary school teacher and my dad was an out of work drunk. We lived on $30,000 a year...which in California is fuckiing chump change (a nice middle class house was roughly $500,000 back then).

    I get so offended when people assume that my allegance to Ancap is because I'm rich and want less rules so I can make more money. I believe in the free market because I believe in complete freedom.

    I stood in line at food pantrys, used the same back pack three years in a row, shopped at K mart...So please dont assume I'm in this for the money, JACKass.
     
  7. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
    Male, 42 years old
    Long Beach CA United States
    LOl just read a few posts back on this thread :)

    Well said, welcome back TMAB. Unfortunately we can keep saying this til we're blue in the face and there is always someone who wants to come here, talk shit, act higher and mightier then everyone else, and in effect try to divide us. (and suprising there are usually people to pat them on the back.) To paraphrase the Crass Live cd title, There's always someone who tries to ruin it for everyone else. we just have to ignore the negativity and elitism and keep pushing forward, and let the naysayers push back all they want.
     
  8. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    *shrugs* isn't it simply true that unity comes with diversity anyway?
    The rest wouldn't really be unity, in my opinion. It'd turn out to be a clique.
     
  9. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    Jack didn't say that at all and i think you may be calling the kettle black if you attack a person and not his ideas which u didn't seem to do as u put words in his mouth, jst sayn, ah well, yes unity! and sometimes i think culturally people should argue for the form it may or may take in their 'countries' ala continents because i have lately come to see that as important about how you change things in your circles or people will often go huh? at you, a divisive fool is not being anarchist and should be castigated for being so n an individual leval/ala opinion but being a pragmatist is not being dismissive, they sometimes call it common sense, we can't always have a love in and we can't always exclude others because of personality, anarchists should do their best to control feelings to reach the goal, its aalled bein sensible, sorry utopia doesn't exist and we don't have to punish ourselves necesarrily to get it but weigh up your commitment and what we need and stay true and you will love, you will fight and you will be rightious for all and free!
     
  10. Jack

    JackExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 30, 2009
     
    Okay, so there's a movement based on nothing? If there's no definition of something then noone would have ever fought for it. Individualists aren't anarchists, and neither are Godwin and Thoreau. Even if Kropotkin considered Godwin basically an early anarchist-communist, because he didn't live in the time of the anarchist movement and never declared himself an anarchist, he isn't one. Same with Thoreau, if you see someone as a de facto anarchist it doesn't mean they actually are one.


    Yes it does, why do you think it (as a movement) originated in the International Workingman's Association?

    Yes, there is, the only people who havent followed it have only been self hating nihilists and modern US economic individualists.

    Your logic is funny. 2+2 equals 4 moreso than 2+2=5, ZOMG HIERARCHY/fascism.
    It's kind of funny that you attack dierarchy when you're a cappie.

    Lol, you do realize that the Communist Anarchist movement is 10 times larger than all stripes of individualism in the US, and in the UK it's even greater. Remember the US is the center of decadence, backwards thinking, and economic individualism due to already having alot of wealth. Wheras we Communists actually promise something better to people who aren't obsessed with hating society and loving money. That's why we're the ONLY ones present outside of the First World, and why the only place where your kind have any sort of tiny, tiny, tiny, veerrrry tiny "movement" is the US, where you are a fringe of a fringe.

    Yeah, libertards aren't going to be in the revolution because you're reactionary and whine for (as opposed to fight for) a completely different, anti-working class goal. In fact, the only way your little ideology has been spread is by Youtube. Let it be known that in all my time seldom leaving my part of my state, I've encountered dozens of anarchists and not one individualist (of any stripe). Us "battle in Seattle types" ARE the movement. Deal with it.
     
  11. BlinkoChrist

    BlinkoChristExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 1, 2009
     
    Man, can't we fight less and focus on what we could do to better the movement?
    No offense to anyone but everyone here (including myself) is just dividing everybody.
     
  12. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_boneExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    We're reactionary? You're the one who can't have an intelligent conversation with another anarchist without name calling and making generilzations. And I dont know what you meanabout youtube, but I'm glad information can be spread in any way. I personally considered myself an anarcho collectivist for year until I realized there were several major contradictions. THe major contradiction in your branch is that you want freedom, but only for the working class. What if I dont want your new restrictions? That's not anarchism, it's worse than what we have now.
     
  13. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_boneExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    You're absolutely right. Thats why this conversation is happening. I think it's complete bullshit that individualists/ancaps get bullied and excluded from the anarchist community. Isnt the ultimate goal taking out the government? Why can't we just do the infighting later?
     
  14. kaoskat

    kaoskatActive Member Forum Member


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    Nov 16, 2009
     
    anarchy to me is "without government," yes, because i believe that is one of the factors necessary to lead to people being able to live, eat, sleep, fuck, work and die in peace. something that ends with everyone being able to go home and plant flowers, or have a beer, or whatever. with those being my only parameters, i find the adjectives kinda silly and refuse to accept one.

    i think the main advantage that anarchism has that isn't utilized nearly often enough lies in fluidity and flexibility. it's hard to break something that's flexible and it's impossible to grab something that refuses to conveniently sit there and be fixed in place. a lot of these arguments -- like ancap vs. synan--could probably be settled if people recognized one system is not the best universal single solution for every single situation and for every single person on this planet. you're talking about people you don't know, in situations you are manifestly unfamiliar with. human experience runs on a broader spectrum than any of us can anticipate, and it's really pretty damn arrogant to assume the answer lies with an absolute expression of "random adjective"+anarchy.

    i envision anarchist society operating on more of a micro-level and building up from there. in one level, in one place, in one particular sphere, a really really free market might be the way to go. in another place, something that's a bit more socialist. mix and match and patchwork quilt it--then before it goes stagnant and a power hierarchy sets in, change it up. haven't we learned yet that absolutism, extremism and forcing things into a polarity within a group doesn't work? unless, of course, your goal is to create more warring factions. you gotta stay in motion, keep balancing it out, keep checking yourself. some situations, the best thing to do is walk away--some situations the best thing to do is kick the shit out of the other guy before he kills you--and sometimes the bet solution is to make people laugh. usually it's best to make those decisions on the fly, because every situation is unique.

    the minute you lock a subset belief in as an absolute across the board, stuff your fingers in your ears, go lalalalala, and defend that idea at ALL costs, until other people agree with you, then you're back to playing on the power hierarchy level, and any hope of unity, agreement, or accomplishment is lost.

    and well, some people might think that sometimes endorsing one way to go and other times endorsing another on a purely case-by-case, moment-by-moment is weak; i think that people that can't recognize that any system that mankind has ever come up with has a component in which it can be used to oppress others, are simply too damn proud, thickheaded and hidebound to be useful.

    ultimately i want each to rule themselves while keeping the welfare of the other guy in mind; whatever works otherwise that doesn't end in yet another entrenched oppressive hierarchy is equally valid and good.
     
  15. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
    Male, 42 years old
    Long Beach CA United States
    For crying out cornflakes... does everything have to be nitpicked to death? what do u suggest then? We keep squabbling and accomplish nothing? Yeah that is punk rock.
     
  16. Jack

    JackExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 30, 2009
     
    Dude, I can't open post something by going to the post page itself, so have to post at the bottom of the page. Fix your message so I can actually respond to it.
     
  17. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    you need basic guidelines or your're not organised to change much, organisation is as easy as talking to each other about stuff and maybe following some of it through, personalaties keep out, have one though if wish

    why people go, 'wow they know stuff', isn't that worship but they're so grumpy or difficult to work with everybody leaves, thats not personality, thats not working together, i've seen young and old do this, it is non ageist ism ism ism, i can leave my disorders at home, others without mental illness should too and wil not be pigeonholed(i am who i am), say calm, na really if they don't come to the party and if! you see things dwindling, do something else but keep doing it, learn about each other as humans, peace and molotovs
     
  18. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_boneExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    @jack: fix my post?

    @asa: the guideline is no government. period. anything else is semantics.
     
  19. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    yes but organisation must ensue for real change or you get the one person does everyhting, everyone looks to some one, some one tell severyone else what to do but i was just about ha to say maybe we should stay stume as who would want to join this discussion so i basically agree, oh look its those anarcho's arguing again *tune out, know whatya about and no argument only debate.
     
  20. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    I've steered away from most of the vs-debates on purpose, I don't know enough to contribute anything useful and I think it just reminds me of kindergarten anyway.
    I don't know if it's anarchist or not, but fuck I'll start with my own surroundings. I'll try and help people out there, be there for the people I know or don't know to the best of my ability and in return if I need help I'll ask for it. I don't care where you come from, what you've done or what you think. A mate of mine is Scottish and was a career soldier, he's like 10-15 years older than me anyway, but fuck he needs help I'll be there and he's done the same for me.
    I don't care about all this nitpicking, it's self-destructive, hypocritical, doesn't accomplish anything and it's too damn easy on the net anyway. We have a slogan here in Holland (dunno if it's used in other countries as well): een beter milieu begint bij jezelf. Which translates to: a better environment starts with yourself.
    I came here for info, not for fucking squabbling or whatever and I read the posts, but largely ignore 'em.
    That's the diversity I speak of, who the fuck cares where you came from? Who the fuck cares what the fuck you've done? Who the fuck cares what your specific views on abolishing the state are? For fuck's sake can all the kids just get a grip and play out their emo-style drama somewhere else?
    And yes I hope some of this has offended the right people, they might find themselves thinking for a change.
     
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