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Vote & Elections

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by blackcat, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. SurgeryXdisaster

    SurgeryXdisasterExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 8, 2009
     
    Okay,
    I am confused...
    Sarcasm?
    Or something else?
     
  2. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    IF VOTING CHANGED ANYTHING, THEY'D MAKE IT ILLEGAL. (i think this was from Alternative...) Anyways I wholeheartedly believe it. Voting for a republicrat or demican is stupid. The Lesser evil is still evil. Fuck it. However In an Anarcho-Society I would think you would be a fool NOT to vote.

    -the anxietist
     
  3. Rabbit

    RabbitExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    Ok. Here's my problem with this. You can in fact argue that "they're all the same." Fine, but there is in fact a choice. You can pick either the slightly left of center or the slightly right of center. Your "voice" is very small and probably won't change anything, but how long does it take you to cast that vote for the lesser of two evils? Yes, the lesser is STILL evil. But if you think that Rudy Giuliani and Barack Obama are "the same," you need to get your head checked. (If you weren't aware, Giuliani is the ultimate police state advocate)

    True participation in mainstream politics won't do a thing (i.e. campaigning and all that shit) but spending half an hour every four years to at least try to determine how evil those in power will be is ridiculous.

    It may not change the system, but it could do as much as preventing a war. Isn't that worth a little bit of time?
     
  4. outlaw squaw

    outlaw squawActive Member Forum Member


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    USA: A Brief Analysis of Election 2009


    Off-year elections were held in a number of places around the country on November 3, 2009. In NJ [New Jersey] and Virginia, the incumbent party, the Democrats, were thrown out of the governorship. In NYC [New York City], Republican incumbent Mayor Bloomberg was reelected by 51% to 46%, even though he spent about 14 times the amount of the Democratic opponent! People are angry with the austerity being implemented by state and local governments. Also, both deposed NJ governor Corzine and Bloomberg are seen as rich Wall Street types, and that is not very popular at this time. Also, in the 23rd congressional district in upstate New York, the Democrats took a seat in a special election, even though it had been a solidly Republican district since the Civil War. Many right-wingers, such as Sarah Palin, had tried to capture this seat for the Conservative Party candidate, since the official Republican candidate was seen as being “too liberal.” Their support for the Conservative Party candidate forced the Republican to drop out. The result? The more “liberal” Democrat was elected.
    Capitalist politics has been moving to the right since the 1970s, when the post-war boom came to an end. The capitalists system is in decline and they will make the workers and the middle class pay dearly for this crisis. Therefore, the capitalists are not willing or able to give any reforms. When the system was booming, they would give a few crumbs from their table to maintain social peace. But the system no longer allows this.
    However, while the system pushes the ruling class to the right, there is also much anger in the working class. This anger is expressed in an often confused and distorted fashion, since there is no mass party of the working class in this country. For example, the Republican right-wing advertises itself as “anti-establishment,” even though they are bought and paid for by big business! They have also tried to rally opposition to changes in health care by claiming to defend Medicare. They run ads opposing Obama's health care plan (which is a million miles from socialized health care), explaining that it will cost precious jobs that they dearly want to defend!
    This shows that the right-wing knows the mood of the masses is not for cuts in social programs. However, this is precisely what the Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives alike must do. They must institute counter-reforms, deepening cuts in the few social programs that exist, because this is what crisis-ridden American capitalism demands. As the federal budget deficit skyrockets, they must at some point raise taxes and cut social programs to deal with it.
    In Maine, a referendum repealing marriage equality for gay men and lesbians has passed. This is another strategy of the ruling class: divide and rule. As the crisis continues to unfold, their goal is to divide the working class and get people to fight against each other, rather than unite against big business.
    In Ohio, the building of four Casinos has been approved, on the promise of modest job creation in a state with 11% unemployment. This is the “solution” the rich offer: to gamble away your earnings in the desperate hope you might hit the jackpot!
    At some stage, the present crisis will be reflected in a sharp debate in the labor movement. Those labor leaders who said trust the Democrats will be challenged by the membership. Workers will see that we need a political alternative to fight both the Republicans, who are the open enemy of the working class, and the Democrats, who claim to be friends but are every bit as controlled by big business. As this debate unfolds, the possibility to establish a mass labor party will become a reality. With the anger that exists among workers in youth, is there any doubt that such a party would do very well politically, even though it would be ruthlessly defamed by the politicians and the media? In these latest elections, turnout was dismally low as workers see no real alternative but “the other guy.” Offered a mass workers' alternative, currently “apathetic” workers and youth will come out in large numbers to organize and vote for such a party. Workers and youth who are looking to change this system should join with the WIL (Worker's International League) to fight for this perspective, to help bring real change in the interests of the vast majority, not the few super rich.


    Written by Tom Trottier
     
  5. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    I am not old enough to vote (that doesn't mean my opinions can't change things ;) ) but, that being said, I would vote if I were able to. As was stated earlier in the thread even if it were just for the difference of one life. If a ballot can change how many civillians die then what part of your conscience mind objects casting that ballot?I fully understand the attrocities that the state commits. It's still going to be the same fucked system whether you participate or not and its your choice to vote or not but the one ballot could still equate to thousands of lives US or otherwise.
     
  6. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    You're alright, kid. :D There are many older than yourself with much less common sense.
     
  7. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Theres voting in anarchism, just done differently obviously, not tryin to be facetious just if theres a misnomour voting does not exist; and i liked the sentiment thats gone into this thread, cheers.
     
  8. kaoskat

    kaoskatActive Member Forum Member


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    Nov 16, 2009
     
    okay, i'm in the us. i can't speak for other countries or whether or not they should take part in their governing processes, that's on them. for me, personally-- i never used to vote. my philosophy was pretty much what some have expressed here--all those guys are the same, and nothing i did mattered.

    lately, i have been tho, because lately things have come up that i feel a stake in. i feel a stake in matters relating to getting religious interests the fuck out of our civil process, faulty and fucked up as it may be. because it makes a difference between being able to get married, being able to control one's own reproduction processes, and being treated like a second class citizen, or a fucking human being at all Right Now. and Right Now These Tools Are The Only Ones We Have. my anarchim is practical, pragmatic, and survival-based. i don't give a fuck if participating in the process invalidates it or validates it in a philisophical sense--philosophy can bite my ass in that regard. the fact remains, that currently in the u.s. we have a majority being allowed to vote on whether or not our fellow humans get to be treated like fellow humans in the eyes of the law. and that's just plain fucked up.

    so i will continue to work towards anarchy. and i'll wish for a fucking flame thrower, too. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, if all i have in my hands is a rock, well fuck it, i'm gonna be heard, i'm going to fucking use that rock, i will vote, and before anyone on this board tells me "i'm not a real anarchist" for doing this, let me suggest that some of the more privileged members try pulling their heads out of their own asses for a while. you want to tell me how much it doesn't matter, right. it's amazing how much of this stuff doesn't seem to matter to people who have no stake in it.
     
  9. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    word, the trinity bomb program scientists who had brainzzz were told that they nazis had the bomb, they weren't even close and the program was full of russian spies, sounz like iraq etc etc etc and look wat happened, lies lies lies, do wat you can and always always always! aim for them to dissapate as staunchly, wisely and strongly as possible, i don't believe in utopia perse but we can kinda have it.

    we have one party that represents tha farmers who pollute the country clean and green to tourism
    one that represents the national party
    one that arrests peoole under international law fogetting like a naional malaise that their party was formed outta sedition
    another that like to tell everyone what to do, putting cottonwool around a nation
    and indigienous nationalists who have no choice to do so to get individual rights

    we could have paradise cept for the politicians, its time in a new millenium for them to go, we will represent each other not have you making following draconian total greedy laws and i dodn't even live in the '3rd world', 'the old country' or in an 'empire' or a 'banana republic'

    IT's RICH, I Want It 4 All
     
  10. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    [​IMG]

    THIS is your rock
    [​IMG]

    voting is not.


    Americans, how the hell can you still trust this shitty system after what happenned in 2001 in florida during bush vs al gore elections..... And the same circus is going everywhere in the world, fake democracy and cheated elections....

    Watch documentary "hacking democracy" if you want to know more about the big joke of the electoral system
     
  11. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    absolute, voting has diff meanings though but tottaly agree ungovernable

    geez i wish i cud edit my last post
     
  12. Spider

    SpiderExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Sep 3, 2009
     
    I tell you who votes? Fascists. Especially seeing as if they win they only have to do it once. And if there is no antifascist presence at the ballot then thats how groups like the BNP get seats.

    You may not like the system, and I'm with you 100% in wanting to bring it down, but as long as it stands not voting is essentially saying "You win" to everybody that people on this forum are against.

    Should you pay taxes? Fuck no!!! Should you vote? Unless you want to live in a fascist dictatorship (worse than it is already) then i suggest probably yes.
     
  13. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    a myth, the facists/racists/nationalists lie so why believe the system they run ummm, there is time and place and context but for the most part, ya vote in this system unless an action perse won't change shit and so it goes....NO, vote for ya individual and for the people/together

    otherwise its a total and utter jip that has terrible consequences often worse in countries you can't see, maybe we should have organisation/system activism not just save the trees, thats symbiotic but not the aim hmmmm, then you could vote for the people and people could vote for themselves as their is voting in anarchism but never to entrench this system, they're trying it in oz now
     
  14. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    I'm not sure where to begin. It's clear you don't know much about how the American electoral system works, that's fine, I don't know that much about the Canadian system. However, this is bad argument. Honestly, when the same bad arguments get repeated, then refuted, then repeated again as if nothing ever happened I have to wonder if there isn't a deliberate misunderstanding.
    Let's look at the bigger fallacies;

    1.That not voting accomplishes something or has some symbolic value.

    False. The message you send to the government when you don't vote is "Do whatever you want, I won't stop you." If everybody stops voting we get fascism, which doesn't sound like fun.

    2.The notion that voting undermines or replaces other forms of activism.

    False. As I said you can protest on tuesday and vote on wednesday. There is no conflict.

    3.That "real" Anarchists don't vote.

    Well, I suppose that would depend on how you define a real Anarchist. However, one of the major undercurrents in Anarchists thought is a moral outrage. If you don't vote you don't care. If you don't care I don't see any sense being an Anarchist.

    4. Voting doesn't matter.

    Essentially false. Oh, don't get me wrong, we're choosing between two wings of the business party, HOWEVER.. These wings operate in slightly different ways, and serve different elite constituencies. A recent Princeton survey showed that poor families do worse under republican administrations. (Which isn't really news.) Now, for the families that get wiped out or go bankrupt, or whatever, that makes a difference. The question you have to ask yourself, again, is; "Do I care?"
    I don't have any illusions, but I vote because I care. If you're living in a blue state, you might want to vote Green/Socialist. I usually do in the primaries, but as of yet have not in the real election. In addition to weeding out the worse candidates, you get to vote on issues. Like I said, me and my fellow citizens passed gay marriage and decriminalized pot. Now people won't be getting arrested for a victimless crime. I think that's a good thing. It isn't ideal, but for those people it means the world.
     
  15. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    This system by its nature is facist, geez, the one...money and religion talks too loud bla bla bla

    2.The notion that voting undermines or replaces other forms of activism.

    you can vote for each other instead of pawns for the most part as when were you involved in the decision, you didn't pick the representaivve and and then they do what they werw always not gonna do anyway, haven't you heard of the military industrial/capitalist complex and which system do YOU live under

    3.That "real" Anarchists don't vote.

    how many times do i have to say, so a raise of hands isn't voting and ticking a box of a person you don't even know is, get a grip

    4. Voting doesn't matter.

    We must represent ourselves or nada

    Thanks for ignoring what i said, i said its in context, its not exclusive, you get bush out, you vote, the bnp is gaining ground you vote as you said a moral standpoint but don't argue that with a nihilist which is endemic in some circles ie: they won't change shit but they can still lift bricks
     
  16. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    Well, we're pretty much fucked for a while here in Massachusetts. This also has negative implications for the country, as a whole. I'm SO fucking pissed.
     
  17. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    knew this was going to happen, hope if will be ok, if not, change the nation of capitalism ideology, even if a bit then if will be important, its time
     
  18. gitanoAnarco

    gitanoAnarcoMember New Member


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    well. interesting question.
    i assume you mean in the u.s.?
    i have a lot to say about this but will try and follow your guide lines
    as a disclaimer i would like to say that i live in seattle, u.s. but was born in uruguay.
    i have lived in western europe, where anarchists have political representation (i.e. parties)

    What do you think of the electoral system?
    the electoral system is fundamentally flawed- because of the electoral college. if a district votes one way- the local electoral college representative has no obligation to vote the same way

    also i would have to add that since the vote is not obligatory- it is in fact useless

    not to mention that no one in the u.s. votes. at least, less than 30% of those eligible do so actually go and do it

    what do you think about blank votes?
    absurd. why bother voting if you mark it blank?
    but wait- what if you do not feel represented?


    which brings us to the next question-
    and my next point

    what do you think about anarchists and communists who vote?

    herein lies the crux of the problem.

    in the u.s., there is no real representation. no real democracy.

    let me explain.
    if you want to vote communist, or fascist, or anarchist, or green, or social democrat, or whatever-
    where do you go? who do you vote for?
    where is the representation?

    anarchists should be able to vote for an anarchist party (yes i know, forgive me)
    communists should be able to vote for a communist party
    black and brown shirts should have theirs too.

    to me that is democracy.
     
  19. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    but how far does nihilism go if the brown shirts get in? ww2's over, we need to be more progressive, i agree for the most on the whole.
     
  20. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    It just got even worse. As a result of an act of diabolical legal sorcery that granted corporations the same rights as persons (Actually, even more rights because they can afford a better legal team.) the Supreme Court has just voted to remove all restrictions on corporations' political donations. Our political system is now for sale.

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/a_s ... _20100121/

    This is a fucking nightmare...
     
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