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Protocols of Zion (9/11 and anti-Semitism : Against conspiracy theories on 9/11)

Discussion in 'Documentaries & Movies' started by ungovernable, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    (And it's a mean joke, I know, but I felt just like...

    I wonder how desperate people like you cling to terms like "conspiracy" and dwell in a black&white view of the world instead of using their brains to get behind the distractive media smokescreen/the soap operas in your eyes.

    No, they don't need to conspire - because it's their fucking buisness, they do it 365 days in the year, most of them monday - friday from 9am - 5pm - and "the strong point" made by Ungovernable:
    This whole chaos of undercover action and disinformation campaigns is nothing more than everydays buisness in the fucking system of exploitation and repression.
    First thing: Get your basics straight, phaedrus - THERE IS NO THING LIKE A MUSLIM RACE!
    And I can only hope that you aren't already brainwashed too much by "we aren't left/rightwing"-assholes covering up that they are just retelling the rightwing/fascist tradition of conspiracy fables.
    Put down the black&white blinders - supporting the israelis against the muslims doesn't make the u.s. government left wing or at least liberal and I doubt washington would give a shit about the holocaust if israel would'nt be an usable strategic ally like Ho Chi Mins Viet Minh, bin laden or saddam were once - untill something more important came up and the allies turned out to be enemies.
    It's just a more or less nifty try to cover up the contradictions in the systems everyday buisness - selling weapons to later terrorists, supporting dictators and mass murderers to save democracy and freedom... pushing the pawns across the board.

    And instead of wasting time with pulling loose ends together wheter or not they fit into the knot, let's do what another (massmurdering) makedonian did - one stroke... and the gordic thingie went to the garbage heap.
     
  2. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    Spot on! I smiled, although I assumed you googled it. My version of it actually comes from the character (well sort of) in Zen And The Are Of Motorcycle Maintainence, it's a good book, check it out.

    what do you mean by this?

    Agreed. Off to Iran next I would have thought. Israel is nothing but US state.
    Do you know that they had originally planned it to be in part of Canada, Israel I mean.

    Ungovernable. Well of course it's a conspiracy, look up the word in the dictionary perhaps. I know what you mean I'm not being too silly or pedantic, I'm just trying to make you understand that the official version events is only a conspiracy theory, although it actually has less logical evidence in it. They never even actually proved who the hijackers were with actual evidence, by the way. All they actually got, was a confession from an Al Qauida operative, this confession was given after imprisonment and well document torture. Fuck, if I had been water-boarded and had electrodes clamped to my balls I'd be talking anything they'd want me to talk! Have you read the official 9/11 report? The correct alternative theories actually have more worthy and supportive evidence, and are much more logical and yet people are expected to believe the joke of a official report and just take their word for it. Insane.

    I find that very naive although I understand your point, are you not aware of the declassified history of similar actions on a smaller scale by western governments?

    And if 9/11 was purely and attack by Islamic extremist with no connection to any western goverments (ha.ha.ha how can anyone with a brain believe this!), I like the naming of the US as the "bully that never learns":

     
  3. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I already did twenty years ago when I was motorcycling myself a bit, so I assumed Zen And The Art behind the name - but google came out first and woke up the last remains of my hunanistic education - so it was just too funny to let it out - but to make good for it: check out "jupiters travels" by Ted Simons, a good book and it's a bit less fabulous too...

    I think it's obvious that there is a muslim believe - islam, with dozends of branches, sects and subdivisions - but NO muslim "race".
    I'm living in germony and actually there are lots of islamophobic ripples and waves around to worry about, in general at least chauvinistic, if not openly racist and almost every time justified with a follow-up statement of respect and devotion towards jews or israel - only to cover up the suspicion of fascist propaganda. (I love jews - so I can't be racist...).
    There is already some evidence that some u.s. government pr-agency is supporting european weirdos to bolster up the european war efford in Iraq and Afghanistan - but again: It's no conspiracy, just "agency-business".
    For science and me there is only one race - the human race, so the mention of a "muslim race" is either just ignorant /stupid or worst case: a sign for being brainwashed by racism. And after your unclear position towards the background of Icke or Jones at least I am still waiting for a statement...
    From the endless seas of evidence I take the documentation "the spy factory" about the nsa and the role it played around 9/11 - this quote is from a review:
    http://www.scientiareview.org/pdfs/104.pdf
    “The Spy Factory” was originally aired in February 2009 and is now available for viewing on the NOVA website (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova).
    From another review of the "spy factory":
    http://www.kued.org/?area=pressReleases ... ls&id=MzM4
    Not that I have any doubt about the capability/willingness of some u.s. agency to torture, but I never heard this story before - but Hayden's activities are still discussed in public in the u.s. and elsewhere, so I rather believe this version - blame me for blindness?
     
  4. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    I never read the sequel, did you? I'll check out the Ted Simon's book too, cheers.

    Very interesting thanks for sharing the spy factory nsa article. More convenient ignorance from the US authorities though, kind of like NORAD standing down etc.
     
  5. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    the problem is twofold.
    1. 'Race' is socially constructed, ie. determining ppl are of a different 'race' due to rather arbitrary guidelines (skin colour, where one was born, etc) is pretty daft. There are greater biological differences in ppl outside of these constructs.
    2. Even if we were to accept these daft notions of different 'races', the label of 'the Muslim race' does not hold up to close scrutiny. Indonesia has the highest population of Muslims, ppl from South-East Asia don't tend to look much like yr typical 'Arabic' person. It would be more accurate to state that post-9/11 we have seen the increased victimisation of ppl of 'Arabic' appearance in the 'west'. Although there is also a heightened fear of Indonesian folks in Aus, not that it wasn't there previously. Asia has been our Other for ages now.
     
  6. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    And just because it's that fitting, that nice and just at hand:

    American Anthropological Association
    Statement on "Race"
    (May 17, 1998)
    With the vast expansion of scientific knowledge in this century, however, it has become clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species.
    Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.
    That what I mean with "everydays buisness" providing later "mysteries"... sloppiness, nine-'till-five-mentality, concurrent competence, stupidity, norad-operators on lunch break, gaps in the chain of command - kaboom!
    No, at the time I finished Zen and the Art I found it a bit too philosophical, Ted Simons view on travelling was more like mine, but I guess I will read it some fine day to prepare for the long overdue trip I'm planning for years... Talk about settling down, while there is still so much of the world I will never see... :'(
     
  7. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Adding to this...Muslim is an adherent of the religion of Islam. Literally, the word means "one who submits (to God)". Muslim is not a "race" because its purely a name given to a religious belief. Noone is born "muslim", merely taught it (the religion of islam).
     
  8. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    Really? When NORAD were ordered to stand down? There is also indisputable evidence of Thermite (used by demolition agencies to cut through steel columns in buildings) usage on the steel columns of the two towers. There is also along with this the statements of the Fire-fighters regading WT3 which wasn't even hit by and aircraft, this particular video had to be released after a lawsuit by the International Center Of 9/11 studies to get it released, it's that important:
    h[video]ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_u9Ni6jHfw[/video]

    The power of convenience and coincidence are amazing.

    I'm sorry for saying "Muslim race" I was wrong, but I think most people know what I meant!
     
  9. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    No, and your ignorance seems to be perpetual...focus on class war and anarchism not pendejadas...
     
  10. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    Well I apologised for saying "Muslim race" my friend. doesn't make me ignorant what so ever. You know full well what I meant. I was referring to the stigma and dehumanisation of people who are Muslim, quite obvious to most that that is what I meant. Do I really need to explain I said "race" when I meant religion? Is it easier for people to rant and rave about that than the issue and point of this thread? Perhaps start another thread where we can have a big discussion about my silly little mistake and you can all get on your high-horses about it/
     
  11. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    And you have first hand knowledge of this 'evidence' because A. you have seen it for yourself and B. you know exactly who placed it there because you were there, right?

    You don't say...

    Nobody is on a high horse 'friend' we are merely pointing out that concentration on the minutiae of the state is a colossal waste of time and a distraction and potentially allies you with the lunatic right-wing fringe and does absolutely no good to the advancement of an anarchist class war struggle.
     
  12. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    People far more intelligent than you or I in the arena of physics and architecture have provided more than enough evidence. If your up to date on the issue you'd probably already know this.
    Oh the age old argument of "you wern't there so how could you know". Please at least research and have valid argument when dealing with such a serious topic as this. Remember how many people died on that day, look at the world post 9/11. I do not mean to use rhetoric with this statement, I just think it is something people easily forget. I do not condemn you for your argument at all, all I ask is an intelligent response.

    But isn't this thread regarding the "9/11 and anti-semitism: Against Conspiracy theories on 9/11" ? Excuse me but aren't you taking a tangent off topic here?
    Do you not think the actions of the ruling elites is extremely important in the movement forward of an anarchist class war struggle? I think it is.
     
  13. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Holy shit, not another conspirationist dumbass, i'm really sick of this debate i don't even have the energy to counter all your bullshit arguments in this thread as i know conspirationists like you never question themselves and never change minds, so i'm not going to waste my time again.

    Punkmar77 said it all :
    I repeat that debates on a possible conspiration is a SMOKE SCREEN to avoid seeing the real problems, the government must be laughting at us and this is why they dont care, they prefer to see us debate about a possible conspiration instead of focusing on the consequences of the 911 : war on terror, war on afghanistan, war on irak and aggressive stance against muslims and the infamous "axis of evil". FOCUS ON THE REAL PROBLEM GODDAMNIT. Even if it was proven that there was a conspiration on 911, it wouldnt prove anything as the people would think that BUSH GOVERNMENT is wrong. We must demonstrate that ALL GOVERNMENTS are wrong and the sole principle of GOVERNMENT is the source of all problems, and not the person in power.

    911 conspiracy is a WEAPON OF MASS DISTRACTION. It doesn't question capitalism, it doesn't question the state, it doesn't question the bourgeoisie, it doesn't question authority and government.
     
  14. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Listen, you don't know me well enough to make assumptions on my intelligence or my knowledge of physics and architecture. Frankly I don't give a fuck about who was responsible for destroying the WTC, nor will I waste my time researching it. The Capitalist War Machine is responsible for a magnitude of human suffering and death around the planet that make the -3000 deaths pale in comparison and that is far more relevant to me and others. There are current topics that are much much more important. If you want to waste your time and effort mired in that bullshit go ahead, but don't expect your misguided focus to continue to be relevant among fellow anarchists. I also notice that you have not bothered to comment on any other threads so if your hellbent on continuing this useless argument maybe you need to go post on some whack conspiracy site instead and be with like-minded people.
     
  15. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    Erm, it certainly does ask questions, it certainly does question the bourgeoisie and the rest of it. I'll repeat myself:
    Now calm down and stop getting all excited. You started this thread, how boring would it be if we just agreed and bowed down to you. It actually seems you are out of your depth on this so your arguments are very weak. Trust me I've seen all of them before, most just default arguements for somone who hasn't fully researched ALL of it to say.

    Allow ME to take a tangent:

    I spent a large part of yestereday reading this forum, most of the time with raised eye-brows, I thought this website was supposed to be called "Anarcho-punk" ? There are particular members who act pecuiliar and seem to get very stressed out when Anarchy is discussed, some who think they are all knowing anarchists (guess who) and literal gods of the forum casting rules of what is anarchy and ironically maintaing a god-like behaviour, where is the "no gods no masters"? Who are you to set rules, who are you to tell anyone they are stupid and wrong, I saw a band get fed to the dogs with you lot because you maintained an abusive close-minded attack which is incredibly strange considering you are supposed to be anarchists. I ask you...what type of society would we live in if it was maintained in releation to how you act? "Right, whens the next boat leaving!" say the mass hoards of terrified anarchists.
     
  16. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Are you kidding me ? How the fuck does it question the bourgeoisie ? Open your eyes, those theories are very popular in right wing movement and tea party bullshit, it doesnt have anything to do with questionning the bourgeoisie, and the bourgeoisie isnt even involved in the supposed conspiration.

    It doesnt even question the existence of government or the state, it just question the role of the government in place at this time. Or maybe you're going to pretend that all conspirationists are anti-capitalists anarchists against the state ??

    So far you're the one with weak arguments just like any other conspirationists you rant about shits you found on internet and you believe anything you read.

    It is. It's not called "Alex Jones Forum" or "Reopen911.com". Where did you read that we support right wing conspiration theories ?

    Oh look whos talking, the all-knowing-conspirationist-who-knows-the-truth-that-no-one-knows-about-911

    This forum is managed by the members, dumbass.

    Oh sorry, i didn't know that you can't tell someone is wrong when you're an anarchist, i didn't know you have to agree with everything.

    What type of society would we live in if people like you wouldnt give us the right to disagree with them and if people like us wouldn't be allowed to say what they want ?


    You're just another conspirationist troll, go back to Alex Jones forum.
     
  17. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    hehe Ungovernable there is not much point in me replying in much detail to you is there ;)

    Oh and by the way, stop with the insults just because someone disagrees with you or holds a differnt opinion, did you really expect no reaction to your initial post if so why did you post it , your like a child grow the fuck up.

    And another thing, Alex Jones...can't stand the guy I'm afraid. Good effort though.
     
  18. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Wow and then you are saying we are the one who doesnt know what to answer ? you didnt even answer my arguments and my questions

    And fuck off, what the fuck do you expect me to reply when you post bullshit provocations and sarcasm about us being authoritarive moderators and thinking we're gods ?


    There's a very good documentary in french explaining how all conspiration theories come from right wing thinkers, especially concerning 911. It explains how Thierry Meyssan made the first best seller about conspiration theories concerning 911 and how it was quickly accepted in the right wing movement, how many right wing thinkers started to follow these theories and then many books were released following Therry Meyssan bullshit. BTW, he wrote this "investigation book" without ever visiting the USA in his whole life, so its just some pile of crap. BTW, This book was released by an editor called Pierre Krebs, president of a far-right racist pagan sect. The documentary also explain how the source of ALL conspiration theories around 911 come from far right thinkers. They even meet some Al Quaida officials who admit the organisation is behind 911.

    But oh yeah right, those guys are all part of the big conspiration to hide the truth, hopefully people like you are here to open our eyes.

    Documentary in french here :
    http://www.kewego.fr/video/iLyROoaftrZm.html
     
  19. JesusCrust

    JesusCrustExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok...(First off, I'm on a macbook, and I have no idea how to use spell check etc, so bear with me) I'll get hated on here, but I'm willing to accept it. I believe there is more to this than what the 9/11 comission wants us to believe. First disclaimer, "I've actually never heard of an anti-semetic conspiracy approach to the theories." I've watched Zeitgeist, Ill admit that, and it did its intended purpose, I "researched" shit for a while. To me, 9/11 isn't exactly what we're told, but I also understand the smokescreen it permits to the real battle. Not once did I get caught up in a conspiracy where it drove me away from my real cause. Though I feel there is a major fault in American government on 9/11 (besides the well known fact that the current administration knew of an attack,) I am not side tracked to the real issues at hand. Regardless of who was behind the attacks, as Ungov and Punkmar said (I don't feel like finding the comments and quoting them seeing as I remember the thesis): It's a smoke screen, regardless of who was behind it, US government, or "terrorists" (in which the US government still used it to their advantage) It's still about the wars and abuse and immoral acts that happened after because of said attacks. The lives lost in unjust wars for oil company profit. The loss of our civil liberties. The class war must rage on, no matter their attempts at making us side step. It's one struggle, one fight. Class war to end all war.
     
  20. Phaedrus

    PhaedrusMember Forum Member


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    There is a theme with your posts Ungovernable. So hostile. Your sources and videos to fuel your obsessional WITCHHUNT to source out the potenitial Right-Winger is kinda crap, get over yourself your obsessed with routing out "right wing" to a point it's blurring your vision. I'm not going to watch that video again I've seen it, you see I've done my research well...it's blindingly obvious how you did your research. Do not talk to me about answering questions, your a king of avoidence.

    It might be best to not behave the way you do then. Don't tell people to "fuck off" don't put people down calling them "dumbass". Nobody respects an arsehole, sorry but your being one. What's next then Ungovernable, are you going to send anyone who opposes you to the camps, are we to be worked to death? Sound familiar? Your angry responses only solidify an opinion about you, you lose control so quickly when confronted, making your arguements vicious and subjective to the point of people feeling embarresment for you. Throughout this whole forum it is apprent.

    I am sorry I had no intention of "getting personal" on this forum, perhaps I was baited, my weakness is exposed ha.

    And Jesuscrust. Never be afraid to speak your mind. Never be afraid to speak your beliefs.
     
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