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Pornography

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Probe, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. anarchoskin69

    anarchoskin69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 14, 2010
     
    i didnt say rape in hardcore porn, ive actually watched a feminist porn video of a mock breaking and entering with a rape, but the female consented to the act beforehand and explained it was her fantasy. that kind of dialogue is necessary for those situations is all i'm saying.
     
  2. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 21, 2010
     
    An interview with Louisa Achille, who made the naked feminist 2004
    http://inthefray.org/content/view/867/39/

    And gentlemen, don't forget:
    the whole porn business is show business, nothing you are shown is real or forced upon actresses and actors. otherwise it would be bad business, and even the feminist porn makers want to earn money.
     
  3. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 19, 2011
     
    do you guys really still believe in "true" stories? have you the slightest idea how moviemaking works in these days?
    the slappin, spitting and whatever else isn't agreed upon, but it's part of the scriptbook and the actors agree to their roles - you seem to be kinda romantics... guess we really need some good making of-documentary to give you some insight!
     
  4. Bentheanarchist

    BentheanarchistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Dec 10, 2010
     
    Hardcore in hardcore porn does not mean rape, it means hard sex.
     
  5. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 29, 2009
     
    http://blog.cannold.com/2011/10/before- ... -wars.html

    Before You Buy in to Porn Wars....


    Interested in the facts about porn, not just strongly-held opinions? Check out these excerpts from a recent academic review of Gail Dines book Porn Wars.

    Pornography’s Effects: The Need for Solid Evidence
    A Review Essay of Everyday Pornography, edited by Karen Boyle (New York: Routledge, 2010) and Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality, by Gail Dines (Boston: Beacon, 2010)

    by Ronald Weitzer

    In an earlier article in this journal, I critiqued a particular theoretical approach to prostitution, what I call the “oppression paradigm” (Weitzer, 2005; see also Weitzer, 2010). The present review extends this critique to some recent books on pornography, both of which are grounded in the oppression paradigm—a perspective that depicts all types of sex work as exploitative, violent, and perpetuating gender inequality. This paradigm does not hold that exploitation and violence are variables—present in varying degrees or absent in some kinds of sexual commerce—but are instead constants central to the very definition of pros- titution, pornography, and stripping. I have argued that those who adopt the oppression paradigm substitute ideology for rigorous empirical analysis and that their one-dimensional arguments are contradicted by a wealth of social science data that shows sex work to be much more variegated structurally and experientially (Weitzer, 2009).

    The books under review make no pretense of being fair and balanced analyses of pornography. Several of the authors are self-described antiporn activists and, given their strong political views on the subject, it is no surprise that they are critical of pornography, say nothing positive about it, and offer sweeping generalizations to condemn it....

    Gail Dines is an academic and well-known antiporn activist. For her, pornography is dangerous and has far-reaching effects on society: “As long as we have porn, [women] will never be seen as full human beings deserving of all the rights that men have” (p. 165). Her book, Pornland, echoes much of Boyle’s book in its arguments. What are Dines’ core claims?

    1. Porn is becoming steadily mainstreamed, “infiltrating” the wider culture. This has happened to such an extent that we are now living in the midst of a “porn culture.” “Porn is now so deeply embedded in our culture that it has become synonymous with sex” (p. x). Dines’ examples of this mainstreaming include young girls’ sexy attire, women’s genital waxing (which began in porn), magazines such as Cosmopolitan and Maxim, music videos adorned with scantily clad women, shows such as Sex in the City, websites such as Girls Gone Wild, and “hookup sex” between young people which “is a lot like porn sex” (p. 114). There is no doubt that Western culture has grown increasingly sexualized in the past 20 years (Attwood, 2006). But it is a separate question (a) whether this trend is a bad thing, as Dines thinks it is, and (b) the extent to which pornography is responsible for this broader sexual- ization, a claim that is only sketchily documented in the book.

    2. Dines imagines that there is a distinct category of “porn sex.” Porn sex is “debased, dehumanized, formulaic, and generic” (p. x). It differs from proper sex, which she defines as involving “empathy, tenderness, caring, affection” and “love, respect, or connection to another human being” (pp. xxiv, xi).

    3. Porn is almost universally “degrading,” “dehumanizing,” and violent, with women as victims and men as perpetrators. “In porn the man makes hate to the woman, as each sex act is designed to deliver the maximum amount of degradation” (p. xxiv). Women in porn do not experience pleasure, “rarely” receive oral sex, lack agency, and are simply vehicles for men’s satisfaction (p. xxiii).

    4. Pornography itself has become increasingly extreme: “what used to be considered hard-core is now mainstream pornography” (p. xvii). “Body-punishing” sex is now the norm, meaning that it typically involves very rough sex harmful to women’s bodies.

    5. The slippery slope: Men who watch porn become “desensitized” and seek ever more extreme porn to satisfy themselves. Dines declares that “users need to eventually seek out more extreme acts as a way to keep them interested and stimulated . . . heightening the level of degradation is what keeps men interested in and aroused by porn” (p. 68). Inevitably, it seems, men “end up masturbating to images that had previously disgusted them,” including bondage, violence, and child porn (pp. 93, 94).

    6. Porn has strong, unequivocal effects on viewers: Viewers are passive recipients who do not actively engage with and interpret messages and meanings. Porn “leaves little room for multiple interpretations” (p. 86), something media scholars would find outlandish. Dines rejects the notion that viewers are “sophisticated consumers who enjoy porn for the playful fantasy it is” (p. 82). This is a fiction created by the porn industry. It is “fantastical thinking that men can masturbate to porn images and walk away from them untouched by the misogyny” (p. 78). “The stories seep into the very core of their sexual identity” (p. xxii); “the ability to keep porn women separate from the women they date is eroded” (p. 67); men are “trained by the porn culture to see sex as disconnected from intimacy” (p. 92); and “porn trains men to become desensitized to women’s pain” (p. 74). The porn industry is depicted as “predatory,” preying on men and “hijacking” their sexuality (pp. xi, xii).

    The Evidence

    To evaluate these claims, it is crucial to ask if there is supporting evidence. Like Boyle’s book, Dines’ is evidence-thin. Although Dines cites a handful of academic studies, vir- tually the entire book is based on anecdotal information: (a) quotations from some men and women who attend Dines’ lectures; (b) her descriptions of some porn websites; (c) statements from a handful of actors and producers whom Dines met at the annual Adult Expo convention in Las Vegas; and (d) her accounts of selected scenes in porno- graphic videos. How does Dines use this impressionistic material and what alternative sources would be superior?

    First, Dines did not conduct a systematic and rigorous review of porn websites or scenes, nor does she cite studies that do so. Neither are readers told how many websites or scenes she examined, nor how they were selected. Did she view 20 scenes or 2,000? She claims that they were representative—“these images are all too representative of what is out there on the Internet and in mass-produced movies” (p. xxi)—but we have no basis for believing that they were. With so much porn available today on the Internet and elsewhere, how could we ever construct a random sample from this universe to reach generalizable conclusions?

    Older content analyses found that most pornography in videos and magazines was nonviolent (Scott & Cuvelier, 1987, 1993), and that the most sexually explicit or hard- core videos contained the least violence and the most reciprocal, egalitarian behavior between the actors (Palys, 1986). It is an open question how much violence exists in con- temporary, Internet porn, but there is no doubt that today’s porn is much more varied than what Dines claims.

    Second, grand generalizations are made throughout the book. Dines frequently refers to “men,” “women,” the “porn industry,” “fans,” and “performers” as monolithic categories. Also troubling is the jarring use of terms such as “never,” always,” “usually,” and “most.” Similarly, nowhere does she define some frequently used terms: “degrading,” “dehuman- izing,” or “empathy.” She does give examples of acts that she considers inherently degrad- ing; these include anal sex, ejaculation on a woman’s body, two or more men having sex with one woman, and multiorifice intercourse. Whether these acts are indeed perceived as degrading by viewers and actors does not figure into Dines’ argument. They are simply defined as perverted by fiat.

    Third, nothing is said about gay male porn, lesbian porn, alternative porn, porn made by women—which, together, constitute a sizeable share of the market. A small but growing literature on these genres shatters Dines’ sweeping claims about “porn” (see Bakehorn, 2010; Collins, 1998; DeVoss, 2002; Stychin, 1992; Thomas, 2010; Tucker, 1991). The prolifera- tion of alternative genres renders any generalizations about “porn” ludicrous. But even if we ignore these genres and focus exclusively on mainstream, heterosexual porn, most of Dines’ claims ring hollow. Some of the most popular sites (xvideos.com, redtube.com, porntube.com, youporn.com) contain a very wide range of content and are by no means restricted to the images that Dines claims are the norm. A cursory examination of these sites shows that it is quite common for men to provide oral sex to women (contradicting Dines). To claim that “we never see any kissing or touching in porn” (64) is simply false. To claim that all or most women in porn are devoid of agency, that they derive no plea- sure during the sex acts, and that “body-punishing” sex is pervasive in porn are simply unsupported assertions.

    Fourth, Dines acknowledges that there is very little data on actual porn consumers— those who watch porn in the real world (vs. in laboratory experiments)—but then proceeds to make many far-reaching claims about them. She writes that the “men who speak to me are not that different from the general population of men who use pornography,” but her source for the latter is another antiporn writer, journalist Pamela Paul (p. 89). Dines did not conduct a survey or in-depth interviews with a sample (let alone a representative sample) of consumers. A particularly troubling aspect of the book is her quotations from men and women who have spoken to her during and after her lectures. Blocks of sentences are quoted verbatim, bracketed by quotation marks, without indicating how these statements were recorded. How can readers have confidence that these statements were actually made by individuals with whom she had conversations? Was Dines somehow able to remember verbatim student statements consisting of two to four sentences at a time?

    Few researchers have investigated the uses and meanings of pornography for consum- ers in the real world. The neglect of actual consumers (as opposed to lab participants) is remarkable in light of the sweeping claims about pornography’s impact on them. Still, a handful of studies has shown that men and women decode and engage with sexually explicit materials in a wide variety of ways, which is exactly what media experts would predict. McKee (2006) found that some viewers prefer to see idealized bodies whereas others favor realistic bodies; some like plots and genuine “chemistry” between the actors whereas others want unadulterated sex (“gonzo”); some believe women hold the power in porn sex whereas others take the opposite view.

    Compared to men, women are less likely to seek out pornography, consume less of it, are attracted to a smaller range of representations, and are more critical of porn. Many women dislike the portrayal of women in porn and are concerned that men might compare them unfavorably to models and actors (Boynton, 1999), yet other women find pornogra- phy to be entertaining, educational, or sexually stimulating (Attwood, 2005; Ciclitira, 2002). It is certainly not unusual for female consumers to view porn positively, and this is more likely for younger adults than older generations. In a unique survey of 688 Danish women and men aged 18-30, men reported significantly more positive effects of porn consumption
    than women, but few women and men reported negative effects. Most perceived positive effects on their sex lives, attitudes toward sex, sexual knowledge, and the overall quality of their lives. Moreover, for both men and women, the higher amount of pornography consumed, the greater the perceived positive effects of exposure to porn (Hald & Malamuth, 2008). If these self-perceptions are valid, the researchers suggest that “pornography’s impact is relatively positive and that media and popular books’ reports of highly negative effects on consumers are exaggerated or unfounded” (Hald & Malamuth, 2008, p. 622).

    For some men, there is no question that exposure reinforces callous or sexist views of women, whereas others interpret and experience it in an opposite way. A major study, based on in-depth interviews with 150 men, found that most of them understood porn as being about fun, beauty, women’s pleasure, and female assertiveness and power (Loftus, 2002). They did not like depictions of domination or aggression against women and were “specifically turned off by such behavior on the rare occasions they see it in pornography, and most haven’t even seen any” (Loftus, 2002, p. xii). Loftus concluded that it is “impor- tant to male viewers that the women really do seem to be enjoying themselves, that they are utterly involved in the sex for their own pleasure too, and not just serving the interests of the male actors and onlookers” (Loftus, 2002, p. 249). They also recognized porn as a fantasy world quite different from the real world in terms of people’s behavior and appear- ance (Loftus, 2002, pp. 137-147). Rather than emulating the men in pornography, the men interviewed by Loftus “usually did not like the men they saw in porn” and saw them as “unsuitable models for behavior” (Loftus, 2002, p. 61). And in stark contrast to the slippery slope argument, these men “have not sought ever more vivid, kinky, and violent pornogra- phy, but have either stuck with what they liked from the first, investigated wilder content and returned to what they preferred, or lost interest altogether” (Loftus, 2002, p. xii). Most of these men did not gravitate toward increasingly extreme representations. The men in the Loftus sample were largely contacted via the Internet and thus may be unrepresentative of the larger population, but the findings are consistent with some other inquiries (Klein, 2006; McKee, 2006). In short, the existing empirical evidence on real-world consumers contradicts Dines’ sweeping generalizations about them.

    For readers of this journal, the question of whether porn contributes to violence against women is particularly salient. The books under review generally take the position that porn does lead to both attitudes supportive of aggression and actual violence, although they occasionally acknowledge that the matter is complicated. Several authors in the Boyle col- lection agree with Dines that “there is a link between porn consumption and violence against women” (p. 95). This is a long-standing debate that includes other media as well (e.g., rap music, video games). In laboratory experiments, the most consistent finding is that exposure to violent images, whether pornographic or not, tends to increase partici- pants’ levels of aggression, whereas nonviolent porn does not have this effect (Bauserman, 1996; Donnerstein, Linz, & Penrod, 1987). But there are serious problems with such stud- ies because they rely on small, convenience samples of volunteers instead of representative samples and because of the artificiality of the (laboratory) settings in which they are con- ducted, quite unlike the viewers’ natural environment. Therefore, the “poor analogues provided by laboratory research may tell us little or nothing about the relation of pornography and aggression in the real world” (Fisher & Barak, 1991, p. 77).

    Similar evidentiary problems bedevil macrolevel, quantitative studies that purport to measure porn’s effects on the real-world treatment of women. These studies examine whether the availability of porn in a particular geographic area correlates with rates of violence against women—that is, (a) whether places with high availability of pornography (magazines, adult theaters, video rentals) have higher rates of sex crime than places where pornography is less available, or (b) whether increased availability over time in a particular region increases rates of sexual offenses. A comprehensive review of the literature con- cluded that macrolevel associations between pornography and sexual aggression were mixed: Some studies find a relationship between availability and reported sex offending, whereas other research documents a decline in sexual offenses with increased availability of pornography (Bauserman, 1996). But all such studies are inherently problematic because of their inability to control for all potentially relevant influences on male behavior. There is simply no way to confidently conclude that pornography is responsible for rates of vio- lence, particularly when it is unknown whether those who commit violence have viewed porn and, even if they have done so, whether porn or some other factor is the cause.

    The larger point is that it is virtually impossible to isolate the effects of the media in the context of other influences, including individuals’ demographic backgrounds and per- sonality characteristics, socialization by family and peer groups, wider cultural influences, and so forth. A comprehensive literature review concluded that research has not demon- strated a link between media images—of any kind—and audience behavior. At best, media effects are “weak and affect only a small percentage of viewers” (Felson, 1996, p. 123). What matters most is whether a person is socially predisposed to act, or “primed,” in a certain way—with preexisting views reinforced by or resonating with new stimuli (Donnerstern & Linz, 1995). Moreover, the causal direction may be the opposite of the one typically asserted (i.e., exposure to porn leads to aggression), as indicated in research that finds that men who score high on sexual aggression are more likely to seek out sexu- ally violent media and, in turn, to have their preexisting views reinforced by the latter (Bogaert, Woodard, & Hafer, 1999; Malamuth & Check, 1983). In short, media scholars would find the far-reaching claims of Dines and some of the contributors to Boyle’s book quite astounding.

    Conclusion

    Whatever one’s personal views of porn, for those who wish to know more about its content and the experiences of viewers and performers alike, the books under review offer little useful, evidence-based information. Overall, these books present an extremely biased picture of pornography that stands in stark contrast to sound scholarly research.

    Declaration of Conflicting Interests
    The author declared no potential conflicts of interest with respect to the research, authorship, and/or publication of this article.

    Funding
    The author received no financial support for the research, authorship, and/or publication of this article.

    Excerpts downloaded from vaw.sagepub.com at CAL STATE UNIV LOS ANGELES on May 19, 2011
    674 Violence Against Women 17(5)
     
  6. JBastard

    JBastardActive Member Forum Member


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    Nov 9, 2011
     
    Keep it consensual and amateur ;)
     
  7. MIKEANDANGELA

    MIKEANDANGELAMember New Member


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    Nov 30, 2011
     
    Agreed, me and my wife watch it sometimes, as long as it involves mature people, nothing illegal, it is ok with us.....
     
  8. manson285

    manson285Member New Member


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    Mar 13, 2012
     
    I got one question for you giy what do think about hentai (cartoon porn ) or did someone already answer that
     
  9. Ammon

    AmmonExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Mar 6, 2012
     
    not long ago i saw i documentary on this subject, lots of the girls and boys in the doc said they chose too,if someone wants to do that whos to stop them
     
  10. pUnK@55

    [email protected]Active Member Forum Member


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    Nov 26, 2011
     
    would this be a bad time to admit my fetish for midget bestiality?
     
  11. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 25, 2012
     
    I don`t like porn and it has nothing to do with feeling insecure about myself, I`m just sick of having the whole sex thing rubbed in my face daily. shut the fuck up about it already. Its getting boring.
     
  12. BozzNugg

    BozzNuggMember New Member


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    Oct 10, 2012
     
    Not to lurk this too hard…

    It seems to me most people on this forum are basically just going back and forth about porn in its own context.

    To me, what is wrong with porn, is what is wrong with a capitalist/hierarchical society. Is porn degrading/objectifying/humiliating? Not of its own accord, but when coupled with a monetary bottom line or some other coercive force, yes, it can easily become so.

    Is porn exploitative? …ditto my answer above.

    Are there abuses in porn? Undoubtedly, but are they so different from those in ALL OTHER WAGE LABOUR? I think not, it seems more a question of degree.

    Is porn unhealthy to view… when it becomes an escape or compulsion, which, in a capitalist society that profits greatly from the masses being abjectly distracted from their own lives… yes, it can become unhealthy. Likewise, when gender roles and fantastic imagery are enforced in tandem with what the dominant society deems most profitable to its own dubious interests (i.e. the whole complex of media images that delineate gender roles and hold up photoshopped ideals of beauty in order to compel you to buy more shit, feel insecure, etc.) this can easily fuck with one's mental health, whether or not you feel comfortable with a gender binary or your own body to begin with (since society will inevitably absorb these dissonant images and they will come to bear on you as a matter of course, going from passive to active forces).

    EX: I am fine being a very hairy male, I am fine with the fact that I am balding at 26. I am fine that I have flat feet and less than perfect eye sight, I am fine being somewhat reserved and soft-spoken, collaboratively oriented, and non-competitive. I am fine with my partners, friends, family, etc. having similar differences and even find them endearing in light of the alternative presented to me by society, yet I have still come to internalize I certain amount of psychic dissonance because, though I am fine with these things, but moreover, AM , IN FACT, FINE in an objective sense, other people, who perhaps have not held such a critical lens to themselves or society yet, have occasionally treated me like complete shit, particularly in my formative years, and so now I have at least two voices in my head, one which tries to build me up and the other which tries to tear me down. If I didn't have so many other privileges in this society that allowed me to come to terms with myself (though not without much difficulty) I think I may have collapsed in on myself a long time ago, and my problems are 'merely' those of a straight white middle class educated, able-bodied, CIS man with relatively masculine gender identification.

    So moving more toward a praxis:
    Because of the capitalist/hierarchical dimensions of this issue, I do not buy porn, I pirate it or watch it remotely, (this latter option is unfortunate as the industry still gets money from advertisers, the former is dubious in its effects, since the argument can be made that pirating isn't actually taking profits so much as just not adding to them). It's not perfect, but I really try to work around it. Currently, my partner and I are making a series of our own (for ourselves) and I'm finding the more options I have to watch someone I care about have sex with me, the less inclined I am to watch mainstream porn… though there are obviously some limitations.

    Because of the enforced gender normatively and false perfectionism of the images, I find myself increasingly seeking porn outside of the mainstream (like the aforementioned self-videos) and have actually found myself growing as a result of it (that is not a pun, I dislike puns), for instance, I never thought I would like trans porn, but now I do, and this has opened up a whole new mental space for me in conceptualizing who and how I am. Likewise, I never thought, being anti-hierarchical, *feminist and mutualistic as I am, that I would ever really be interested in BDSM, dom/sub relationships, etc. but now I've been with a few partners who were very into that and I have found elements I enjoy, as a method of play of course, and moreover, which actually fit into my own personal ethics comfortably. Likewise, though I can't say I get sexual stimulation from it, I have begun to find a certain beauty in the grotesque as well. All of which is to say:

    In a capitalist system, all of us are implicated, I think the most we can do is be aware of how, seek to limit our engagement so as to avoid damaging ourselves and others, and actively work to oppose it.
     
  13. Berserksteve

    BerserksteveMember Forum Member


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    May 10, 2011
     
    I fine with as long as there is no animals, children and the actor is not be forced into it by some means. I don't watch a lot of mainstream porn stuff mainly because I prefer to watch stuff that fit my fetish, not to mention most of the people in that fetish do a lot of amiture stuff and you can tell they are doing it because they enjoy making this stuff.
     
  14. DFurther

    DFurtherNew Member New Member


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    Apr 20, 2014
     
    Just as Ran Gavrieli said in his tedx talk
     
  15. Chipsz

    ChipszMember New Member


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    Apr 15, 2014
     
    my 2 cents is that in a capitalist patriarchal society, porn can't really be morally good, I am not bashing the women who make porn as they are ones who are exploited by the industry and the status quo.

    Here is a masterpost about why porn is shit.
     
  16. dee2211

    dee2211Member Forum Member


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    Apr 11, 2014
     
    in our community child abuse is a serious problem recently. and I think it's due to pornography.
     
  17. elahrairah

    elahrairahMember Forum Member


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    it may influence negatively both body and pschology and its a dirty industry but i have no problem with homemade ones
     
  18. The Hat

    The HatExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I'd much rather watch people fuck and give each other physical pleasure than watch people kill each other.

    Porn=GOOD! Violence=BAD!

    Maybe that's oversimplistic, but that's my post and I'm sticking to it.
     
  19. Anarchowithoutcapitalism

    AnarchowithoutcapitalismMember Forum Member


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    Well I like the Catholic Anarchism of Peter Maurin and Dorothy Day so I am not interested in it. With that being said its not my concern what consenting adults choose to do with their life.