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Objectifying women

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by KnockItBack, Dec 17, 2009.

  1. KnockItBack

    KnockItBackActive Member Forum Member


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    Dec 8, 2009
     
    Ok, I’m new to this site and am not fully versed on all general anarchist opinions. If anything I say sounds stupid or completely against anarchist views, just keep that in mind. I want to learn.

    Anyway, I was listening to Aus Rotten’s ‘Sexist Appeal’ and I just wanted to know where you draw the line of objectification. I’ve gotten my head ripped off from feminists before for my opinions on this subject.
    I (am female, by the way) am all for equality, but also am not so naive as to think I am as physically strong as an average man. 1 in 4 girls are molested/raped… I do not ever want to be one of those girls. I feel much safer being in bad areas with a male and I feel safer at shows with men. I have been harassed on several occasions at shows and would have loved to have a friend in reach to get myself out of those situations. I do not think my views are objectifying, just a… precaution (?) I guess. I’m 120 pounds and can barely carry my cat litter to my car, there is no way I could fight off some piece of shit trying to rape me (and let’s face it, there’s a lot of shit out there). It is not sexist when biologically women are physically weaker than men on average. Having a tough attitude and strong mental capabilities aren’t going to save you in a gang rape.

    I also don’t think porn or being a stripper is objectifying. Well, it IS objectifying, but those people choose to do it. Why should I feel sympathy for them when they are capitalizing off of their bodies? I guess I see the viewpoint that doing porn is taking women a step back, so to speak, but it is women choosing to do it and whoever choosing to watch it. And, really, who doesn’t enjoy a good porno?

    How women are portrayed in the media is brought up a lot and how celebrities are expected to look ‘perfect’. You choose to listen to it or you choose not to. While I think the media is more often than not fucked up and manipulative (Ex: H1N1 bullshit… Jesus Christ, it’s as dangerous as the regular fucking flu), I blame the people who listen to it more than anything.
     

  2. Bananaman

    BananamanExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Well, it is true that men have a higher muscle mass percentage and are generally taller, it's just a fact. There are some things you can do to protect yourself from the attacker, but it takes time and a lot of effort to learn self defense. Still if the attacker knows what he is doing there isn't much you can do, and it is virtually impossible to defend against multiple attackers. So yes, I think there is nothing wrong about you feeling safer when there are men around.

    Sex work is always a touchy subject. There are european countries where sex work is legal, and sex workers have a union and receive adequate health care. That to me seems much better than murky waters of half legal practices and other stuff commonly associated with sex industry. And what is good a porno? I personally find plastic look of american mainstream porn too fake to be enjoyed. On the other hand there is a kind of documentary about local porn "industry" called Made in Serbia, and the trashy amateur style of this film is somehow strangely appealing...

    As for the media, it was Goebbels who first said if you repeat a lie enough times it becomes the truth. Botox rules the celebrity world and is really absurd, most consumers don't realize that they don't need all the expensive treatments and equipment, all they need is to take care of themselves and it's relatively cheap...
     
  3. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    personal porno, no industry, agree about money making, some don't have a choice but if do then i rex's naa

    sexism sucks, sometimes we could lighting up and i have no time for fascists but as long as no symbols i'll listen, stop, commuication is a key.
     
  4. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 12, 2009
     
    It's worth noting, KnockItBack, that most sexual assaults are committed by someone the victim knows, not a predator waiting in the bushes. What your feminist friends might be trying to get across when they get frustrated with you is that, ultimately, you can't depend on men to protect you from sexual violence. Statistically speaking, all men are potential rapists. It's not a comfortable thought, but your friends can betray you.

    I was talking with an ex recently about how different it is walking through her neighborhood when I'm around versus when I'm not. Dudes hanging out on the street corner won't hesitate to make unwanted comments about her body when I'm around but, when I am, they wouldn't dare. It's definitely not an intimidation issue because I'm just a skinny punk kid. The fact is, men have been socialized to think of women as possessions. Most most men believe (even if they don't realize it) that women are passive creatures just waiting around for a man to come along and claim them. They will not respect a woman saying "no," but they will respect it if they believe that another man has "claimed" the woman.

    This is absolutely disgusting, but it's how patriarchy works. Now in these kind of group/public situations it is up to you to decide what makes you feel safe. If it makes you feel safer to have your guy friends around to shield you from sexual harassment, no one has the right to judge you for it. However, I would imagine that where your feminist friends are coming from on this is that it feels much more empowering for them to not depend on men for that feeling of safety, particularly given the aforementioned statistic about sexual assault.

    Actually, they often can since most rapists don't want a victim who fights back. (That's why they teach you to yell, "no" with every strike in rape aggression defense classes.) What's much more likely to save you is a tough attitude, strong mental capabilities, a knife and some pepper spray.

    I don't agree. Advertising is psychological warfare against a civilian population. Bananaman's quite right to bring up Goebbels, as modern advertising owes much to Nazi propaganda and also to the CIA's MKULTRA program. It's all behavioralist science on mass scale: how to use sound and image to manipulate mass culture. Everyone passively absorbs and internalizes messages from modern advertising, because it's a) ubiquitous and b) endlessly reptetive. It cannot be ignored. It must be destroyed.
     
  5. Cocytus

    CocytusExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 14, 2009
     
    Its called carrying a knife big enough to dismemer theyre member.

    No dude is going to fight back after you put a notch in his cock, and you wont go to jail for murder.
     
  6. Extinction

    ExtinctionExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 1, 2009
     
    I think everybody here is saying what I'm trying to get at. In my college I hear sexism all the time. Now i'm not a racist guy, but most of the time I hear it coming from black men towards black women. It really sickens me, and someday I will say something about it, but most of the time they stand in posse's of 9 or 10, so it's hard for me to confront them. When I'm with friends, I never talk about sexist things, in fact I have the utmost respect for you girls.

    Don't know what I was getting at, but there ya go.
     
  7. bletheringvegan

    bletheringveganExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Dec 3, 2009
     

    It may be a women's choice to do pornography or become a stripper, but why is the choice there in the first place? I think it's because we live in a patriarchial society where it's seen as acceptable to objectify women. If we didn't see this as acceptable then the choice wouldn't be there I don't think. Also, a woman doesn't have much agency to not choose those kind of options when she is desperately poor. So again it's about changing the social paradigm to that of equality.
     
  8. KnockItBack

    KnockItBackActive Member Forum Member


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    Dec 8, 2009
     
    Carcass, I see every point you made. Even about the media... as much as I like to think people are strong enough to ignore it, you're right. and I see what you're saying about empowerment, and I know I came across this way, but I don't depend on men, but it is nice to have them around sometimes. Like you were saying about your ex and walking through her neighborhood, that is all true and it's nice to not have to deal with it.


    I guess I just don't think wanting extra safety, working in the sex industry, or how celebrities are portrayed in the media is objectifying... which I get a lot of flack for. I mean, there are lines to cross with all of those things... for instance if I had a boyfriend who would not "allow" me to walk home by myself, or if a girl doing a porno was told she'd be doing one thing and then manipulated via contract to do something totally sleezy that she never agreed to is objectifying in a sense.

    And after re reading my original post, I went back and forth between objectification and sexism, which I didn't mean to do. They're related, but I was trying to separate the two. Oh well.
     
  9. disfuck

    disfuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 11, 2009
     
    the media portrays objectifiying women all the damn time , and now its to the point where it even seems like they are promoting beating them , i saw a commercial for that fuckin jersey shore shit show and there are a few scenes where a woman gets punched by a big fuckin meat head muther fucker , and another where a girl throws a drink in a guys face at a pool , and he leg sweeps her ans she hits her head on the ground !!! its pretty fucked up !!! just watch this bull shit !!


    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2NqEDW-ZGhU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2NqEDW-ZGhU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
     
  10. sociopop82

    sociopop82Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Sep 3, 2009
     
    I'm willing to argue that if the roll's were reversed starting now that in 20 years at the most
    women could be larger in stature and most likely just as universally stupid most men are (lack of a better word).

    Imagine if instead of females in cosmetic commercials, males.
    Women playing the super bowl and men cheering them on.
    I'm not saying men will grow breast and start producing estrogen but if
    the pressures that affect both sex's were reversed their would be more buff girls
    and more petite men.
    I blame the social norms that the media perpetuates.
     
  11. KnockItBack

    KnockItBackActive Member Forum Member


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    Dec 8, 2009
     

    Ok I'm so happy you said this because I actually think about this all the time. I really think you're right (except for the 20 years part - that is a VERY short amount of time for evolution that big). Because if testosterone is linked with aggression, and women were forced to be more aggressive, then they would produce more testosterone, yes?
    If you look at stereotypical gay men, they are very feminine. Their voices are higher pitched and they tend to be more emotional. Now how much of that is a forced habit (that eventually becomes natural) or how much of it is due to them not feeling the need to be a stereotypical manly man is the question.
     
  12. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 19, 2009
     
    The media has and never will show anything that we hold dear in a right light. The media is garbage and it will not change. It only answers to money.
     
  13. sociopop82

    sociopop82Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Sep 3, 2009
     
    Well of course I don't expect evolutionary change in 20 years but definitely noticeable differences.
    BUUUUT the vegetarian barbarian is right
    lets not hold our breath.
     
  14. KnockItBack

    KnockItBackActive Member Forum Member


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    Dec 8, 2009
     
    Oh, I'm not.
    I know girls who wear heels to go grocery shopping and guys who wouldn't do the dishes if their wives were in a coma. I don't think there would be a group large enough to start changing the gender roles, but it's fun to think about.
     
  15. Wonder138

    Wonder138Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 2, 2009
     
    sexism sucks
    i grew up with gangbangers and rely poor minoritys all the dudes i knew in middle and in high school all treat women like sex toys or most do i see diffidently mostly because i love the shit out of my gf but also because iv allways wanted sumthing more besides sex i wanted love witch ment i wasn't chasing "poon" like most guys i was chasing the actual girl


    CAUSE RICHARD HUNG HIM SELF RICHARD HUNG HIM SELF-FFFFFFFF
    was just listing to that song
     
  16. instantlybent

    instantlybentActive Member Forum Member


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    Dec 16, 2009
     

    um......
     
  17. instantlybent

    instantlybentActive Member Forum Member


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    Dec 16, 2009
     
    i agree with all of this and think this is a good topic, but would just like to add about the knife/pepper spray comment- if you choose to carry a weapon be ready and able to use it. otherwise its more of a liability to you than a protection. as weapons go pepper spray, while being non-lethal, can be really bad in some circumstances (for instance some people have really adverse reactions- whos gives a shit about the rapist/asshole but it could have a bad effect on YOU so make sure you have no allergies, heart conditions etc because if the wind is blowing the wrong direction you can easily also get sprayed) and if you use a knife STRIKE LOW. you dont want to kill someone, because you cant really depend on the judicial system to defend you fairly, and you dont want to go to prison..... also cops will hassle you for carrying a concealed weapon (obviously) so be aware of the law and your rights.
     
  18. Bananaman

    BananamanExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 9, 2009
     
    Yes developing something like that would take more than 20 years, but it's not unheard of in nature. Hyenas have females with very high testosterone levels, and genitals that look very very similar to male ones. It's still a mystery how hyenas are able to reproduce.

    Stereotypical gay men are more of a media thing than reality, and I would like to stress the media stereotype. Sure there are gay men that play to that stereotype, but from limited contact that I had with local gay community I can tell you that there are far more gay men that don't fit that stereotype. But, there is a kind of a notion that if you look weird or feminine than you must be gay, and it's not uncommon to see people assaulted just based on what they look like or mannerism. And usually by men that really lack confidence.

    I guess the lack of confidence is the key to sexism. It's no coincidence that football thugs, fash and such tend only to act tough when they are in a large group. And why should they consider homosexuality as a disease, if they are confident about their sexuality it will only mean more choice for them. But there is always that story about the health of the nation and future of our christian bloodline and what not...

    So lets put this in a personal perspective. I've never been very good in human interaction and I'm specially catastrophic at relationships. This was a source of a whole lota frustration in me younger days. But, meeting gay people has actually made me more confident about my own sexuality, however that may sound. Sometimes I had to play the role of a pretend boyfriend to some of my friends, to fend off overenthusiastic aggressive men. That always felt strange. A few times I've been accused as being a sexist, and seen those same women tolerate far worse comments from men they were interested in. I always found this double standard absurd.

    I also always found it strange how people (stereotypically men) would get mad because their friends stole their boyfriend/girlfriend. Confidence is not gender based, although it is often abused. And if I should feel betrayed by anybody it's the person I was in a relationship with...

    I know it's a loooong rant, but it made me feel better. Hope somebody finds this useful . Discussing sexism is always frustrating but let's all take it easy, knock it back and have another one :beer:
     
  19. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Theres a movement in Japan right now that does exactly this, gender reversal, but not to the point of homosexuality. It might not be 20 years. Also there are some radical anarchist feminist's in San Francisco that embrace the sex work industry as a form of female empowerment.
     
  20. Spider

    SpiderExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I don't think porn is in any way sexist. There is just as much gay porn, transgender porn etc as girl based porn. There is stuff that caters to all kinds of fetishism and sexual activity. For a lot of people porn helps them claim their sexuality and be proud of their particular tastes. It is a very empowering and equal opportunity industry, and in my opinion beats the shit out of most other labor industries. PS anybody who has been to a hens night will know how much more brutally male strippers are objectified than female. They are groped, grabbed and leered at throughout their routine and women will get up and dance with them and treat them like a penis with legs. At least guys are a bit more respectful of lady strippers.
     
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