No Government... Then What?

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

The perfect response to someone trying to escalate is to try and defuse the situation. Though in the case of rape followed by retaliation, followed by another retaliation, the cycle is pretty much endless.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

im confused about youre definition of pacifism, to me pacifism means not using violence under any circumstance. not against the state, nazi's, hooligangs etc. so if u say youre a pacifist but you do fight with nazi's/ hooligans to me then youre not a pacifist. and if you get beaten up by scum like that, it would seem like a good reason not to become a pacifist, but to fight back.
and i see the point that rathryn is making about the vicious cycle regarding violence, but in the case of nazi's i dont think talking to people like that can make then change there mind. i have talked to a lot of nazi's like people about there ideology and the only thing we agreed on is that we dont and never will agree.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

like i said in my last post (i haven't figured out how to quote two people in one post ) i agree with point on retaliation which only breeds more retaliation. but what do u propose as an alternative to the current system of law. cause if there is an anarchist society and someone is raped, what to do with the perpetrator.

This something im having difficulty with, how to deal with people who commit rape, murder etc?????

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

you will find that under the subject: ' the police ' and their beginnings, not what they became and no it wud b diff not draconian and not repeated history etc

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

no..you missed the poined..im not strong and im not willing to fight with somebody. I said that I would beat all nazis rascist if i could. but I cant they have their groups and other shits and I will end up like a dead man.
I cant see any interesting thing about nazism. dont know why people love it so much..

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

I think this would be up to the community the act is perpetrated in, it might actually come to the point where each case is looked at by representatives (who are NOT linked with the perpetrator OR the victim directly) who also differ by case and a punishment is decided upon for each individual.
In the case of rapists I'd suggest, first off, to make them eunuchs by laying their scrotum on a tree stump and having it bashed with rocks by the victim.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

Look at the EZLN. Since they've been "in power" [the past 16 years], they've dealt with 1 murder that I'm aware of. They came together as a Community and came to consensus about what to do about it. They ended up essentially enslaving the murderer to the victim's family., so that he would be responsible for taking care of his own duties and that of the persyn he murdered. I think that's a good way of handling it. He probably felt like he had legitimate reason to kill whoever it was, but wasn't thinking about all the other people he'd be hurting by doing so, now he has to make up for that.

And, I agree with everything that I read from squatpunk in this thread and I'd say pacifism is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to any Anarchist Communities.

Bakica:

Nonviolence is violence. Just a cowardly, impersonal, indirect form of violence.

By categorically refusing violence, you protect those INITIATING violence, those GUILTY of creating the violence in the first place and you open a door for them to kill, injure and imprison your would-be-comrades. Because, as squatpunk already pointed out,violence is not a choice. It exists, period. There's nothing anyone who didn't initiate the violence can do about that. So, the only choice is really who will direct violence at who. The only questions are who is brave enough to make that choice and who is brave enough and physically able to act on that decision. And by refusing to accept that you can't change the fact that violence exists, you are being cowardly [by refusing to put yourself in harm's way, thereby putting your so-called-comrades in harm's way] and//or presumptuous [in the sense of thinking that your refusal to be violent will have any effect on state violence. See, they already know they're wong. They know all the problems you pointed out. And they like them. They profit off the inequality and oppression, so, it's not a question of them realizing what's going on and waking up or anything like that, as you suggested, it's a question of taking our power back from them with the realization that they not only will never willingly give it back, but will also fight as long as they can with whatever means available to them. And we need to be willing, able and ready to do the same.].

Pacifism breeds murder. It allows the murder of non-pacifists by the state, claiming that their murder was their own fault, by choosing to be violent. In the words of Alfredo M. Bonanno; "Rather than shoot ourselves or our comrades in the back, it is always better to shoot police."

I dunno about you, but if people are gunna die in My town, I choose the police, the nazis, the CEOS, etc.

Also, it sounds like your decision to be a pacifist was a ractionary one and reactionary points of view are never good.

Anyway, don't you want to bash those nazis' fucking skulls in!? I don't see how nazis being around could make you NOT want to be violent!

Oh and about the vicious cycle thing, 1 thing I've learned:

"Thou shalt always kill."

I made the mistake of compassion once. Never again.

Also, in the case of Nazis [and the Klan and all the other supremacist idiots], a good beat-down generally ENDS the "vicious cycle". Nothing makes someone craving power and respect not want to be a supremacist anymore, like seeing their supremacist dreams crushed under some punkass kid's boot. Hospitalize a nazi and you take away the illusion of supremacy. After that everything else crumbles. I've seen nazis converted by My own fists time and time again.

On a final note...I fucking HATE Crass.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

Which isn't going to happen, anarchism is a revolutionary ideology. The notion of 'evolution not revolution' is inherently liberal and plays into the hands of the ruling class who can afford to allow us small liberties whilst at the same time denying us control over our world.

Well yes. I want to impose my will over the bourgeoisie, they are my enemy and exploit me and my class. They rape and pillage my planet, they have people I grew up with killed in wars, they steal the fruits of my labour.

A revolution can not happen without violence. The bourgeoisie will not give up their power and wealth without violence. It is wrong to fetishise violence in the way that some insurrectionists do but it is equally wrong to deny the proletariat the right to assert itself against its oppressors. By hand-wringing over the morality of using violence we allow the ruling class to have a monopoly on violence. The moral high ground is worth shit if your enemy has tanks and RPGs.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

Great post! I particularly disliked the second point Rathryn made.

Hypothetycally...

If you're an NSM member and I'm an ARA member, don't fucking tell Me not to shove My beliefs down your throat, I'm going to! [This debate happens a lot between Me and corporate media here.] And choosing not to oppose people who desire domminance in favor of not imposing our beliefs or seeming "hypocritical" or something like that certainly isn't Anarchist, it's stupid. Do what's right, not what doesn't make you seem, ostensively, like a hypocrite.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

Fine I'm a hypocrite *shrugs*
Regardless I will stick to my beliefs until someone gives me a better motivation to start using violence than potential what-if scenarios.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

If it's any consolation I totally agreed with your posts. I believe that we must liberate peoples minds first. The world humans build around themselves is directly reflective of their minds. Free the minds and you've freed the world.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

When it comes to it, a real world scenario
maybe that will be enough motivation

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

First, Rathryn:

I didn't call you a hypocrite, I was questioning and challenging the concept of hypocrisy! And saying that we should be more willing to be seen as hypocrites than to let our loved ones die! And I wasn't speaking in "potential what-if scenarios". Even the hypothetical situation I directed to you was, as you'll notice if you scroll up a bit, based on several of My past experiences. These are not by any means "potential what-if scenarios"! People are dying every day because of police and nazi attacks, because of poverty, because of jail conditions, etc. And pacifism ALLOWS them to die and strengthens their killers by encouraging others to refuse to intercede as well and by implying that they [some of the victims] got what they asked for by being violent.

PACIFISM IS UNACCEPTABLE.

dwtcos:

You can't build a better world or change anything by thinking happy thoughts. Change only ever comes through action. And we need every form of action working together if we ever expect to succeed. And that your world is reflective of your mind part is bullshit.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

don't they go hand in hand, like human genes and survival, i won't impose myself on somebody if someone sees that they must defend themself but a philosphy of non violence in part i might add, is awssome, why wait for others, are you not human, LIVE.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

The world humans have built isn't reflective of the human mind?
Okay then explain to me what it's reflective of. Honestly I doubt you put ANY thought into the statement I made.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

dwtcos. It doesn't appear as if you put that much thought into your statement hon. I mean, "Free the minds and you've freed the world", which means exactly what?

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

What I mean is that the structures that the powerbusters have created are reflective of there attitudes. If we could educate against the culture of greed and petty problems that has bred these attitudes then I theorize that we could watch these structures fall.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

First to make sure, I am not a pacifist, I am non-violent.
Second, your life experiences are NOT mine, I can not in any useful way use them to construct my own version of reality or opinion.
Third, the do not deserve it.
Fourth, I am a blunt motherfucker and do not care.
Fifth, I've had a few beers at the moment.

 

Re: NO GOVERNEMNT... Then What?

Ok people let's get back to an actual discussion instead of making it personal.
we were talking about the use of violence. I have to say i agree with u rathryn about not being able to use someone elses life experience to construct you're own version of reality or ideology. but they are an illustration of how fetusgrinder came to his point of view. and i agree with him on the point that people are dying every day because of the violence of the state, whether it is direct: police brutality or state sanctioned nazi's or structural violence i.e. poverty, discrimination etc. But i would like to hear about people who are non-violent or pacifist about there reasons why..