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Is punk more a subculture or social movement?

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by ryan1980, Aug 6, 2010.

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  1. Raise Your Fist

    Raise Your FistExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Punk is counter-productive.
    Punk is Anarcho-punk's youth.
     
  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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  3. Raise Your Fist

    Raise Your FistExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    The bracelet made me laugh more than anything :lmao:
    Apparently punks ARE primitive. Threatening society with rocks.
     
  4. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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  5. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    the slogan is just playing with words... "punks with rocks" instead of "punk rock".... in other words, the punk music won't change anything, but the punks who stand up and fight will..


    note: i'm ignoring the little bitch who cry a river and the other ignorant who doesn't understand anything about anarchism/anti-fascism starting from now. Fuck both of you. Enough time wasted with your bullshit. Some people really doesn't have anything better to do...
     
  6. Harrison

    HarrisonExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    This reminds me of communist organizers accusing the black bloc of ruining their little protest party even
    as we pull their comrades out from police lines.
    There is no monopoly on revolution and there sure as hell isn't any monopoly on anarchism. And if there
    was, I'd say it probably belongs to the primitivists saying as how they've been around a shit ton longer
    and, quite frankly, accomplish a shit ton more. Perhaps your view on primitivism is limited to a few
    acquaintances who might subscribe to that ideology or maybe a book or zine you've read. Perhaps you
    have never heard of the massive irrigation system constructed (without modern aid) by the Inuando collective
    in Southeast Asia that western engineers still visit.

    Let's not forget that while tens of thousands of anarcho-syndicalists worldwide have failed time and time again
    to achieve anything halfway near a decent revolution, the Bougainville Revolutionary Army of Papua, New Guinea have been
    accredited with the ONLY SUCCESSFUL ECO-REVOLUTION (and repelling of a centralized army)
    I think folks need to stop just looking at anarchism in the western world and instead
    towards places where it's actually won out PERMANENTLY.

    Basically, we shouldn't fractionalize, but if we're going to, I'll throw my lot in with the primitivists
    because it's most likely they who would come out on top worldwide. While the average anarchist
    is throwing throws bricks through store fronts, eco-anarchists like the Vancouver 5 are blowing up munitions plants.

    Do your homework before you make gross generalizations. Whether you agree with primitivism or not,
    it is a humongous folly to say that they're not often the ones on the front lines of the anarchist social
    movement (if there even is such a thing).

    As for individualists, I think everyone can agree that they suck massive horse cock.
     
  7. Harrison

    HarrisonExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I mean, make war on the primitivists and individualists? Are you serious? Does anyone ever want to smash capitalism? Holy jumpin fuckin Jesus, at this rate, the army could disintegrate at the same time as the global economy and we'd still come out on the bottom.
     
  8. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    (to the tune of fish heads by barnes and barnes)
    Shit fights
    shit fights
    holy fucking shit fights...
     
  9. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Typo?

    Moreover, your characterisation of the Bougainville people's struggle against Rio Tinto, and for separation from the Papua New Guninean State as an Anarcho-Primitivist revolution is deeply problematic.

    Firstly, Rio Tinto is making moves to recommence mining in Bougainville, therefore it looks the Bougainville people will have to fight again, and they need our solidarity and support.

    The Bougainville people did what all people do when facing displacement and occupation, they resisted. Same thing is happening in Kulon Progo, Indonesia; Colombia; Mapuche lands in Southern Chile; Indig mob in the Northern Territory, Australia; etc etc (and also Warsaw ghetto resistance, France under the Nazis, Iraq, etc).

    How they won is a pretty amazing story. To mine, Rio Tinto used electric drills and jackhammers. These obviously needed electricity, so the Bougainville people kept blowing up the electricity towers. It worked.

    Anyway, back on point, Bougainville resistance was against the existential threat that Capitalist economics and Multinational Corporate business practises posed to them. ie, they resisted a violent and exploitative economic system and set of social relationships. They were not struggling against 'techonology', which in Anarcho-Primitivist theory inevitably leads to tyranny. Primitivism holds that farming, domestication of animals or any form of social technology which undermines the purity of a hunter-gatherer economic model is inherently oppressive. This does not, from my experience, appear to be a view shared by Bougainville ppl I've met.

    Moreover, it is my view that Primitivism acts as an apologist for Capitalism, insofar as it denies that Capitalist and hierarchical social relationships are the problem, instead blaming techonology. The similarity between Primitivist rhetoric and a boss who 'has' to fire half his workforce because of a new technology (in say, the automation of a car factory) is uncomfortably close. It is class divisions in society, not technology that is to blame.

    Whilst I'm no Waratah Gillespie (RIP), I have met a number of Bougainville activists and organisations I'm involved with have facilitated speaking tours and public meetings in Austalia for Bouganivillians, and raised funds for the Bougainvile community and airfares and such. Anarcho-Primitivism (or anarcho-communism, syndicalism, etc,etc) has not, in my experience, been the guiding theoretical framework for organising their resistance or society. Often highlighted is the role of women in the struggle (in Bougainville there is matrilineal ownership and passing down of land), indigenous forms of social organisation and a desire to maintain control over their everyday lives (and by inference, their lands). Yes, there is certainly a better understanding of environmental realities, but to say there is a complete hostility to all technologies is false.

    Moreover, it's probs worth highlighting that Primitivists do not have a monopoly on environmental politics, anarchistic or not. Bookchin was both hostile to Primitivism and dedicated to 'social ecology' for instance. 'Green bans' by the Builders Laborers Federation (a moderately radical union in 1970's NSW, Aus; well only the NSW branch was any good) provide another example. Colombia's SINALTRAINAL, etc...

    Do I pass Mr. Harrison?
    You note - (if there even is such a thing) - which was kinda my point in my previous post.
    I can only speak about Australia, but the answer is currently a definite no. Anarchism is not a social movement in Australia. I wish to build one (not single handedly of course!). What I had already mentioned is that when Anarchism actually has been a social movement it has been anarcho-syndicalist or anarcho-communist in character. As anarchism demands we smash the false divide between theory and practise, I can say that it has been these anarcho-syndicalist and anarcho-communist movements that amount to anything.

    'talk shit' and 'make war' are two very different things.
    I want to smash capitalism, but i also want to think clearly about what we replace it with, ie a non-hierarchical society where wealth is held in common, and people are freely federated together in solidarity with one another while retaining autonomy on questions where they disagree.
     
  10. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    its still off topic, sorry.
    been writing stuffs about is Anarchism a social movement? lol
     
  11. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    There seems to be a great misunderstanding of what propaganda actually is. Propaganda simply means material designed to convince someone of your opinion. As ungov notes, it follows that all anarchist literature is propaganda, which is fine.
    Is the word yr looking for 'polemic'? or maybe just say most anarchist literature is meaningless rhetoric.
     
  12. Raise Your Fist

    Raise Your FistExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aha, i know man, i was just trying to be funny i guess.
     
  13. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    There is plenty of wiggle room to discuss serious matters butcher, I was mainly directing that comment at the ridiculous flame war that has absolutely no redeeming qualities in a debate. See I'm actually learning something from yours and Harrisons posts which is the point....
     
  14. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    Punkmar, I am so sorry that I decided to explode at Ungov on your topic!

    On topic: Punk is only one part of the social movement, and there's lots of aspects about punk that arn't revolutionary at all. For instance, there seems to be an arrogant notion with some punks where they think that people who arn't interested in punk rock arn't revolutionaries. It's more unspoken than anything else, but I got chased out of the wasteland for not fighting. While I was walking away they shouted "Go home hippie!!" Haha I don't mind being identified as a hippie, but the fact that they mind really left a bad taste in my mouth.
     
  15. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sez here: Propaganda - information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
     
  16. dinscurge

    dinscurgeActive Member Forum Member


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    i would have to say in my opinion that some people confuse "punk" with being a anarchist e.g. say a cyberpunk they arent really all listening to punk music on the internet, they want a revolution upon the internet using the internet for easyer access to direct democracy to vote on w.e. to build a community on the internet ect. to me being a "punk" or "anarchist" really makes no difference in what music you choose to listen too, i.e. i see the communist societys that were set up during the period of time they were testing lsd on college students in the u.s. to be much similar in views to something an anarcho-punk would want, helping eachother out, equal rights, trading goods and services for other goods and services, in my view they too are anarchist/punk in their own time i.e. there parents that were born in the 20's and 30's and stuff probably found the music of the 60's like jimi hendrix and w.e. to be distastefull much like people being born in the 40's-50's probably dont much like the dead kennedys. alot of the movement is being immature and rebeling agains their parents and that they dont understand the music of young people and there squares or whatever. i mean i dont see much of a difference in people that listen to punk music, classic rock, death metal, or hard trance if you want the same economy/government you want the same rights who gives a shit. i mean some hippies are basically the same as anarcho-punks accept they listen to classic rock/different time period and were usually more passafisct. the main difference i see in different groups of anarchists is the means of which they try to achieve some are just protesters where some burn down buildings. i mean most people want equal rights, a stable economy ect. if it could be looked past that they listen to different music and much time and care given to properly describe what would be desired to be achieved, for it to really work, it would have to span across religions, musical taste, races, sexual preferences, ect. the only people that should really be hated are those which cannot stop them selves from forcing their veiws on other people and being overly greedy, or being criminals i.e. nazi's, christians during the crusades, anyone that would start a holy war, people that randomly murder people, greedy people that will not give up their power and have to have controll over other people. as people should have the right to believe in a religion or w.e. if they want or listen to any kind of music, just because some one listens to say micheal jackson or something doesnt mean they cant also hate big business, not everyone has the means or expertise to avoid big business i mean some of you guys have access to computers but your not all freakin out at eachother because of it, probably becuase none of you have the means to build a computer without buying any parts from a big business so it kinda of has to be done, its another reminder of the beast that needs to be destroyed. i.e. no need to get all pissy because some one contradicts them self by buying a cd, because it just proves that theres need for a revolution, i mean the point where you can call iron maiden on the phone and trade some bread of something for a cd the revolution would have allready happened.
     
  17. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    dinscurge, my thoughts exactly.
     
  18. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    Exactly! They're used to persuade someone rather than just to help them understand. The differences between propaganda and education are interesting to me because the two can occur simultaneously. Like how punk rock is mostly propaganda, yet it got me into politics. What I think of as propaganda is something that intends to appear as if its not propaganda in order to hide the flaws of the "group, movement, institution, nation". In other words, I would judge something as propaganda by how truthful the author intends to be on the subject they're defending.
     
  19. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    sez where?
     
  20. Harrison

    HarrisonExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    @butcher
    Yes, you definitely pass. :)
    I often (mistakenly) like to lump eco-terrorism and eco-revolution with primitivism. Like to lump the concepts, not the ideals.
    Simply I know that obviously these people's are not anarcho-primitivist in ideals, but I do believe that
    many concepts present in such a revolution are reflective of what primitivism encompasses.

    But in response to:
    I said make war in response to an earlier post which described a syndicalist collective that called for war on primitivists and
    individualists. Can't for the life of me find it now though...
     
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