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Is punk more a subculture or social movement?

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by ryan1980, Aug 6, 2010.

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  1. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dubstep FTW!! and drum'n'bass!
     
  2. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Not exactly but i feel were on the same page somewhat.
    Anarcho punk is a subgenre of punk music, it doesn't require a brain surgeon to figure it out. Trying to pass anarcho-punk off as something different to the rest of punk culture is sectarian and against the fundamental beliefs of anarchism. Your promoting exclusivity by differentiating between other punks and "anarcho" punks.
    My record collection is too good for you, besides, you don't own a player. Sucks to be you :ecouteurs:
    If you read what I said, clearly thats not the case... most anarchists are exposed to such ideas through the work place and the union movement, not because some snotty middle class kid thinks hes the next Peter Kropotkin. Punk could be a vehicle towards exposing anarchism to the youth, but I assure you most older anarchists will see punk as middle class teenage angst.
    I can assure you, I couldn't comprehend the means of production and the social revolution when I was fourteen years old so how could I possibly identify as an anarchist at such an age? Being open to different ideas about freedom and social awareness is intrinsic in most people, some more than others. That's why people are attracted to punk music/culture etc.

    I'm sorry but pointless swearing is no way to win an argument. I don't like the sex pistols personally but your attitude indicates anything that isn't personally approved by you isn't allowed to be listened to. Well fuck you. people can listen to what they want no matter what genre or political stance the musicians chose to take (if any). Your are infringing on others to appreciate what they enjoy, this is counter-productive to anarchism and indicates you clearly have had little to no dealings with real anarchist activity. I know anarchists that enjoy the Beatles and Eric Clapton, by your logic they should be purged.

    So you admit to having one? :lmao:
    I'm sorry but picking on him because of his avatar is rich seeing as you have Bakunin as your avatar. Don't get me wrong, I love his writings but did you know he believed in an "invisible dictatorship of the proletariat?" Sounds like Lenin but more tricksy :ecouteurs:
    See above
    Hardly fitting of an anarchist, you should be trying to promote anarchism, not turn people away from it you douche.

    Re-read what i said, i said show me one "punk" that was an anarchist before they were a punk. Not the other way around. To clarify I listen to an abundance of music genres among them: Black metal, reggae, Rap, classic rock, thrash metal (Teutonic mostly), post punk (goth) etc. etc. and yes it would be badass if the Makhnovists were punks!
     
  3. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    FUCKING UNGOVERNABLE. You don't seem to get it. Ok. FIRST OFF. I do read, and I like to learn, just not constantly and not for the sake of putting other people down.
    I don't like you because I believe that if you talked to people nicely without getting so frustrated, I would respect you. I just wish I could respect you, but I get the feeling that no matter what you say you are going to come off like an elitist dick who just wants to win. Being 'ungovernable' doesn't mean that you have to be so fucking bitter, cynical and mean. It also doesn't give you the right to be mad all the time and never admit when someone else who disagrees with you might be on to something you hadn't thought off. You just assume that they are being extremist assholes like you, because people tend to project their flaws onto others. So quit being affraid that you don't know enough and just fucking open up.

    And also I DO belong on this website, and that has nothing to do with fucking ungovernable's opinions about me. and also... I LOVE DRUGS. GODDAMNIT.

    ungovernable, even if you're right about the sex pistols, you're wrong to claim that he was being a hypocrite for voicing his opinion while still liking the sex pistols. Even though they're over rated and capitalist, they still made good music. You not liking them doesn't mean other people arn't allowed. Besides, it's a great picture.

    and EVEN THOUGH THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT DRUGS... I'm thinking about if drugs are helping the social movement or not... So I'm going to go off on it.

    COKE... as said by Andrew Jackson Jihad, "It’s made by children for the immature
    It’s made by babies who’ve been captured
    It’s a sin against your fellow man".
    You know, I haven't really checked to see if that's true, but I already know that people get killed over that stupid addictive shit. How much more do you need to know?

    ALCOHOL... is completely over-glorified in every scene, but in the punk scene... DUDE it's killing all my friends. I WILL fucking cry at their funeral, won't you? Alcoholism is a serious fucking issue. It makes you dependent. It makes good people screw each other over and get in bad situations and stupid fights. No, I didn't have to read about that shit. It happens to good people, people that you know. Whats perpetuating it? The social fucking atmosphere! Having friends you like to be around but they feel a social situation is incomplete without drugs.

    PSYCHEDELICS... Good every once and a while, like any drug. Fucking wonderful. Yet, anyone who won't admit there's a downside to any drug is brainwashed by culture and therefore, fucking ignorant. I have done completely irrational things on acid, which I don't regret, but i do think that I would've been better off had I not done them, but i lost control.

    WEED... it opened my mind too. Never said anything against weed. Like the culture, the effects, and the smell. Yet, propaganda and media supporting weed, in my opinion is not as annoying because weed is essentially harmless compared to other drugs. AND you can fucking grow it easily and that eliminates the need to trace the reliability of the source. I endorse the fuck out of it. Legalize it!

    CIGARETTES... The big lobbyist companies that punks WILL support. A cigarette in your mouth, and mine (though I have never bought them) is hypocritical. ADMIT IT. It feels good to admit that you are imperfect.

    GLORIFICATION OF DRUGS... is the very thing I'm against. Why are they glorified I wonder? Could it be that they help us be ourselves? Loosen up? Hell yeah. Those are good things, so is glorifying drugs hindering the social movement? Maybe not... but the effects of CERTAIN drugs are un-avoidable for some and the bad effects shouldn't be ignored just because of the good ones.

    So, are drugs helping this cause against the corporate machine and the facists? I say weed and psychedelics, yes. <3 Everything else, NO. :ecouteurs:
     
  4. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    No way, Speed is hell bent revolutionary! :p
     
  5. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    Speed? You think so? haha maybe if they had a revolution in la-la land. :o :D
     
  6. Adam182

    Adam182Experienced Member Experienced member


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    You were an anarchist when you were listening to Blink182 ?

    yes i was i dont consider blink182 anywhere near punk music (you should really get off of that i thought that was done and over with)
     
  7. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    In fact, send your record collection to everyone. Lets face it, do you really think anyone gets converted by listening to a few Crass songs? Shallow people with no brain, perhaps, but they will move on to the next cool thing after a couple weeks. No way, but what it does do is clarify ideas that are already floating around in someones head. It's like, oh right, anarchism, so that's what they call it. So, I put it to you that anyone that is still into anarcho after a year or two were, in fact, anarchist before ever listening to it, they just didn't know what to call it. Prove me wrong, fucker.
     
  8. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Fucking gold! Nechayev FTW!!!1!

    Already expropriated it, and sending out all the ones i didn't want to you and Ungoverable. Sorry, no Bathory for you! :p :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :rock:
     
  9. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Of course there is a big difference between punks and anarcho-punks and it is two opposed genres. Anarcho-punk is a reaction against punk movement, it was opposed to the mainstream punk since the beginning.

    What you are saying is the same thing that saying nazi skinheads are not something different to the rest of the skinhead culture and that differentiating them between other skinheads would be sectarism...


    Oh and you say nothing about the message i answered to ? She insulted me for no reason but you only critize me... It's also funny how you critize me for swearing and on the same phrase you say "fuck you"....

    people can listen to whatever they want but i can still critize them for being contradictory.

    So basically, you are saying a so-called anarchist can listen to nazi music and enjoy skrewdriver while being an anarchist ? You are funny.

    Bla bla bla. I never talked about purging people, stop with your delirium.

    No, fighting against the music contradictory to what anarchism is fighting against isn't counter-produtive, it is definatly productive towards a social consciousness.

    You have absolutly no idea of what anti-fascism is all about or else you wouldn't say i am counter-productive.

    And stop with your bullshit "i had no dealings with real anarchist activity", you don't even know me so shut the fuck up. Seeing how you say fighting against ambiguity in the musical scene is counter productive prove YOU have no idea of what the fuck you are talking about. if you'd know the french punk and skinhead scene and the position of anarchists about it you'd understand my point of view. French racists, nationalists and neo-nazis hide themselves behind shitty bands and try to hide their views, but to fight against them we have denounce their bands. It's not by doing what you suggest that we are going to be productive. You are just contributing to help normalize ambiguous and racist bands and helping their fans to grow. Even if they reach anarchist audience you think it would be counter-productive to denounce it.

    What part of "i don't give a fuck about it" you don't understand ?

    Wow, now you are just being fucking stupid. Comparing Johnny Rotten to Bakunin, how fucking ridiculous.

    You prove you don't know shit about Bakunin. He was the biggest opponent to dictatorship of the proletariat of all times. Thinking you can reduce Bakunin's thought to a simplist quote like that is fucking stupid. To understand what he meant using this term you must read the whole letter of Bakunin sent to Albert Richard (where he used this term). He explain everything really good.
    here is the french text : http://www.fondation-besnard.org/articl ... rticle=755
    Unless something was lost in the english translation, there is absolutly no referrence or similarities to the dictatorship of the proletariat or to leninism. Comparing Bakunin's thought to Lenin is a real fucking joke.
    In this text, it is obvious that he is saying he want a COLLECTIVE dictatorship WITHOUT STATE. It is absolutly different than dictatorship of the proletariat. We could call it dictatorship of the people. And this is exactly what anarchism is all about. Maybe you forgot what POWER TO THE PEOPLE stands for ??? Anarchism is order without power and the highest expression of power, the people must be able to organize their society and "lead" it themselves. The problem with dictatorship of the proletariat is the STATE and that only the revolutionary proletariat would be able to access the dictatorship. Bakunin presented a serious libertarian alternative to it.

    Seriously, inform yourself and study bakunin before talking shit and saying bullshit...

    I'm strongly against dictatorship of the proletariat, but seriously, saying dictatorship of the proletariat is leninism is just a big proof of your ignorance. Lenin never applied dictatorship of the proletariat, the soviet councils never worked.


    You're a fucking idiot if you think i have an avatar of someone doing exactly what i critize.

    Shut the fuck up, i am not forced to waste my time with those who insult me and refuse to hear anything. How the hell can i promote anarchism when the concerner person refuse to read ?

    Also, anarcho-punk is a tool for anarchists, a tool for people sharing common point of views, not a tool to convert people to anarchism.

    Many people on this topic already said they were anarchist before being punk. Proves you don't know what you are talking about.
     
  10. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    When i told you to read, it was not for the sake of putting other people down, it was just because you're an ignorant and you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about.

    hahaha funny, you are talking about talking to people nicely without getting frustrated and you are the one who started insulting me and calling me a dictator on this topic. And it was totally off-topic, you had no reason to start bitching me, there is no reason to do it on this topic.

    You are fucking ridiculous. I am the one who doesn't know enough but you are the one who doesn't want to read. You are a fucking joke. And i actually can agree to be wrong when someone can prove it to me, but so far all the times i got mad because people doesnt want to understand it was because THEY are the one in error.

    YOU are the one who said you don't belong to this website, dumbass.

    let me quote you:
    And yes, it is fucking contradictory to have a johnny rotten avatar and to critize mindless punks at the same time. It's like having a hitler avatar and saying that nazis are bad.

    You are ridiculous.
     
  11. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    I never said that I refuse to read. I just refuse to listen to YOU specifically because you don't try to understand what any individual on this website is saying, you only trust what someone says if they are quoting some so-called 'expert'. I wouldn't quote someone just because they were rich enough to go to college and learn to write a lengthy dissertation. There is validity in my life experience and the media that I do absorb. Things can be incredibly simple! Your ideas are to complex for the majority of people to appreciate. I am allowed to call you on your shit where ever I want!

    Also, I don't believe that I don't belong on this website. I just felt unwelcomed by YOU. YOU and nobody else.

    Also, what you see as an 'error' or 'flaw' in someone's argument, may be a small misunderstanding. It doesn't mean they don't have knowledge on the topic. Yet, you seem to degrade people for their little flaws all the time! Like its a fucking sport!

    Your negativity disturbs me. You are literally the only one on this website that I can't somehow relate to.

    I am an intelligent person, who happens to be a little under-educated about a few things. I am NOT fucking ignorant. I believe that an ignorant person is someone who chooses to remain ignorant. You can't even see how rude you are.

    You are closed-minded as hell! That's why I call you a dictator! I have seen you post rude comments to multiple people. It doesn't mean that the person didn't deserve to hear your perspective, but you take your perspectives as absolute reality instead of merely your opinion.

    TREATING PEOPLE LIKE SHIT FOR NOT KNOWING THE EXACT SAME INFORMATION AS YOU, DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE INTELLIGENT. INTELLIGENCE IS ALSO BASED ON WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

    I believe everyone can have one part of their argument that's at least a little bit right.

    You telling me to read did not degrade me at all. Its when you dismiss me, call me 'ridiculous' , a 'fucking idiot', and a 'dumbass'.

    I am not any of those things for wanting to be talked to in a civil way.

    All I am saying is you could be quite diplomatic if you wanted to, without hurting anyone, but you do anyway. That, ungov, is a form of oppression.

    THANK YOU TO EVERYONE IN THIS POST FOR PUTTING UP WITH THIS PERSONAL ARGUMENT. I AM DONE NOW.
     
  12. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    And i am also allowed to call you on your shit whereever and whenever i want, so stop critizing me for doing it.

    You are syaing anarchists only bitch each others well you are doing the same.

    You understand nothing about what the fuck you are talking about, you proved it in your topic where you say that federalism is contradictory with anarchism

    Also, we don't quote anarchist philosophers because of their education, but because unlike you they know what they are talking about, and they also have experience in revolutionary movement and also they explain it better than us. They were the first philosophers behind the main school of thoughts of anarchism. If you want to understand these school of thoughts, then it is logic to study the men behind it.

    it's funny because on the other topic you were quoting proudhon as the "father of anarchism"

    you are contradictory and you are just trying to hide your ignorance behind your criticism of the anarchist philosophers

    That's not what you have said, dumbass.

    Not in your case.

    Yes you are ignorant. You prove it at each message you post here.

    Not only you are ignorant but you want to stay ignorant, you refuse to learn, you refuse to listen to us and you refuse to read. Educating yourself would take too much time, like you said on the other topic.

    You are fucking ridiculous. Calling me a dictator because i disagree with you, what a fucking joke. Shut the fuck up..

    i don,t treat you like shit because you are ignorant but because of the way you act

    That was before you started insulting me and calling me a dictator, idiot

    Start by talking to me in a civil way and being diplomatic if you want to be treated the same. And shut up with your bullshit, stop seeing dictatorship and oppression everywhere, you don't even know the definition of those words.
     
  13. Bunny

    BunnyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I think this passage is kinda funny in a sad way. First how childish is it for you not to listen to someone just because of something you assume about them? Also, these ideas are not too complex for must people. This site shouldn't have to be dumbed down because a few people don't want to think about what they've just read. I feel like that you just want information thrown at you like you're watching tv or something.
    And this sounds cold but grow a thick-skin, not everyone is going to be your friend or even nice to you, even on this site. Either deal with it or leave.
     
  14. Wooly

    WoolyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ahh, another episode of "Ungovernable VS the New kid". Dont worry man, it happened to a lot of us new guys. Even though im reading this now and thinking "God what an asshole", i know that Ungov isn't all bad, he knows what he is talking about even though he can seem to be a bit of a dick.

    I got this roasting back with Jesus Crust, and since then i realized that Im not even an anarchist. and before everybody goes and says "What are you doing here, you arnt even and anarchist, Rarararara", i dont really care. I use this website to learn about counter-capitalist culture and activism aswell as all that other equality, animal rights stuff. Im probably more of a hippy than an anarchist, but thats just me. I dunno
     
  15. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I was dreaming of anarchy, of a world with no governments, laws, restrictions when i was 6 or 7 years old, a good 8 or so years before i knew punk meant a type of music and not an insult to a thug. but u can keep your records, i doubt i'd like any of the bands anyways :)
     
  16. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    @Anxiety69

    Same here, bro. With 9 or so years old, I already thought about a community-hold storage house, like the ones anarcho-communism defends. It was kinda of a "wtf?" moment when I read that for the first time...
     
  17. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    At least you understood that you are not an anarchist. :thumbsup:
     
  18. Wooly

    WoolyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ha ha, that was a lot warmer than I expected. Thanks man.
     
  19. Adam182

    Adam182Experienced Member Experienced member


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    same here but i never knew about anarchy:D its so weird how you think like that as a young child and it reflects on the future you:D
     
  20. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    Alright, I will clarify. I don't wish things to be "dumbed down" for me, I just know how many people in America have no clue that they can make a life for themselves based on anarchist ideals. I am not angered by the complexity of anarchism itself, I am angered by people who happen to have a condescending writing style. Personally, I enjoy reading Emma Goldman because she writes in a way that everyone can relate to. Ungov is very knowledgeable, yet extremely critical. Like I said in my other post on this topic, it was pissing me off that he can just get away with being an asshole because he helped start the fuckin website. He's on every single topic finding reasons to shit on people. Just something I noticed. Whether or not I have thick skin is a different matter. It's true, I am sensitive, and I know that I shouldn't be. I still stand by my belief that ungov could try to be a little more diplomatic, for the sake of his own practices.
     
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