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Ironic nazi-thematic in Music

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Shuei, Nov 21, 2010.

  1. Shuei

    ShueiExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    I'm a fan of the genre Neo-Folk, (as well as the countless related genres, like Industrial and post-punk), a genre often strongly identified with right-wing symbolism and elements of national culture.

    NOT all neo-folk bands are neo-nazi's, racist's, white supremacist's or the likes, but many bands have an extensive use of symbols connected to these movements, most notably Death In June - Who've used many strong fascist symbols. Frontman Douglas P. is openly homosexual though, and was formerly a member of Crisis, who were a Antifa group.
    Der Blutharsch - Also using a lot of third reich imagery, but having denied supporting fascism
    Current 93 - Who've also used Swastikas and other imagery of that sort, but who've also earlier collaborated with Steve Ignorant of Crass (under the name Steve Intelligent)
    NON - lead by Boyd Rice, Who've at first had been against being "labeled" in any way, also in terms of fascism and having appeared on a TV Show hosted by white pride member Tom Metzger, and appeared in American Front uniform with member Bob Heick, but also being a close personal friend of multiple well known Jews (like Anton LaVey), and according to these never having said anything racist.
    Boyd Rice is later a self proclaimed "racist, fascist, satanist and authoritarian", yet has also claimed that both Current 93 and Death In June should be racialist bands too. All in all, he is a controversial character.

    The question is, how do you see this use of fascist imagery?
    I find it terribly annoying when i search for good neo-folk, and often end up with "rechtsrock" (Right-Extremist's rock), but then again, i believe in the total freedom of art - also in terms of provocation.

    Do you find it wrong of these bands to use these images?

    I found this to be an interesting topic, because when are we to censor art? And are we ever to do that? Can we judge someone a "fascist" without them openly claiming to any fascist opinions, or is it enough for them to use the imagery?

    I like all of the above groups, and i know that might make me pretty unpopular now, but i found the discussion could be interesting.
     

  2. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    <3 tenhi
     
  3. Pseudo_Minds

    Pseudo_MindsMember Forum Member


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    Apr 16, 2010
     
    I do not find it necessarily wrong. My first encounter when a band used fascist imagery was Slayer when I was a kid and at first I did not get it. They would use the Iron Cross, Nazi weaponry and helmets in their artwork and at first I thought it was an absurd thing to do. Excluding Neo-Nazi bands, I learned groups just seem to use the imagery or themes for shock value or just to plain mock Nazis or Fascists. If anything its pretty funny when ignorant Nazi skinheads listen to a band like Slayer and the lead singer Tom Araya is Chilean! :lmao: In a weird sense that is total mockery. Do I find it wrong that these bands use this imagery? Well it does bother me to some extent especially in the Black Metal Scene. Even though many people find it to be harmless entertainment, it does influence many extremely ignorant individuals to spread bigotry. There is always an individual who does not get the message and subjectively takes it the wrong way. It could be that maybe some music or art is not meant for some people. I do completely agree with you in freedom of art because I highly believe in the idea of freedom of speech even if a statement is racist. In the end who are we to censor how someone thinks. The only way to get beyond racism is through educating people but I digress. Too be honest we cannot judge someone as a fascist just because of imagery. IT COULD lead us to believe it but the only way to make a accurate conclusion is through a persons action. As long as you understand what the band or music is about then it could be fine that they use that imagery, because like I said its could be just mockery! Douglas P is open homosexual and hes using fascists imagery! That funny more than anything I mean its no different than the TV show Family Guy when they make fun of Hitler or Fascists. However, bands who do use fascist imagery could be providing a disservice to the ignorant.
     
  4. snookams

    snookamsExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 7, 2010
     
    i think we can judge and protest all we want, but to really stop someone from doing something usually requires physical intervention.
     
  5. Pseudo_Minds

    Pseudo_MindsMember Forum Member


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    Apr 16, 2010
     
    I did not literally mean you cannot judge, you can do whatever you like, all I am saying is that to wrongfully judge goes in hand with ignorance
     
  6. Shuei

    ShueiExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    Blah:
    Well, i get what you mean. The difference between some of these groups is mostly that many of them surround themself with real fascists etc. as well as with opposers (like Boyd, who is known to appear next to members of White Aryan Resistance while also being friends with Jews), and the whole pseudo fascistic image they use, not only to mock, but often as a part of groups art in a way, that you can barely tell right from wrong (at least in some cases like Boyd).

    But i agree with you, art shouldn't be limited - yet what is problematic about this art is, that you can usually sort nazi stuff off if you don't agree, yet here, it's not so black and white.

    dwtcos:
    Just listened on Youtube - They are good!
     
  7. Shuei

    ShueiExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    Agreed and quoted for truth

    I mean - to some people, just having a piercing is enough to get people judged in a lot of stereotypes. Even if a swastika and such is a very powerful and clear symbol, we must remember the reasons at any time - which can be more blurred in art
     
  8. JackNegativity

    JackNegativityExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 9, 2010
     
    I don't know about all these nazi accusations, but I still <3 Death in June.
     
  9. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    to be fair, Chilean people can be racist as fuck (not implying that Araya is). Just ask some white[er] Chileans what they think about Mapuche people: lazy drunkards or some such may ensue. There are plenty of non-white people who are nazis, as weird as it sounds. My Colombian punk mate said they (punks) had heaps of issues with nazis there.
    Racism exists in other places, because its a social construct and whatnot, hence what are the Other to US or Aussie folks (Central & South Americans / Asians respectively, oh, and muslims) can have their own discourses of Other within their country of origin.

    Fun facts, two of the main soldiers for the master race down under aren't white, one is Lebanese (Jim Saleam) & the other Vietnamese i think (Jack Van Tongeren)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    and this o_O :
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Pseudo_Minds

    Pseudo_MindsMember Forum Member


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    Apr 16, 2010
     
    I know that there are non-whites who claim they are Nazi's. I live right next to the border to Mexico and I have seen plenty of Nazi punks in Mexico and seen Nazi propaganda in Distros and such, I was just pointing out the paradox of it all :lmao: btw funny pics, but as in those people are pathetic I was caught in between two reactions :o
     
  11. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    i agree its funny and contradictory, then again nutzis aren't exactly logical at the best of times.
     
  12. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    butcher, is there a lot of racism against aborigines in aus?
     
  13. Pseudo_Minds

    Pseudo_MindsMember Forum Member


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    Apr 16, 2010
     
    I agree hahahaha :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: [​IMG]
     
  14. JackNegativity

    JackNegativityExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 9, 2010
     
    I read something years ago about a Japanese nazi party. Don't remember much. Anybody else heard of that?
     
  15. Pseudo_Minds

    Pseudo_MindsMember Forum Member


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    I do not think I have read something specific about a Japanese Nazi party but I know that Nazi uniforms and propaganda has become highly fashionable with the some selective youngsters. :ecouteurs:
     
  16. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    oh god yes
    where do i start?
     
  17. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    some wp guy on another forum was actually trying to tell me that aus belongs to white people


    wat
     
  18. DirtyRottenThrashPunk

    DirtyRottenThrashPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 11, 2010
     

    I've heard some disgustingly famous individuals (ex: Glenn Beck) say that America is the white mans "native land" (not exactly in those words though I think).


    And as for the ironic Nazi themes in music...it's pretty stupid, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything most of the time. Like almost the entire early Punk scene in the mid 70's...I've read that some of them didn't even really know what the swastikas meant until years later..
     
  19. Shuei

    ShueiExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    Dirtyrottentrashpunk:
    Well... As in this example, Boyd Rice was actually featured on a white power show, talking about using music to propaganda... Again, He's a contradictional character, claiming to be fascist and all - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsKbbIybtVM

    Then again, i'll give that provoking is a great part of it.

    Jacknegativity:
    Death in June aren't nazi. Douglas P. Played in Crisis, who played multiple Rock Against Racism shows and antifa campaigns, and even made a record called "we are all jews and germans".
    Also i doubt that Steve Ignorant would ever work with Current 93 (who often features Douglas P. as well as many other famous musicians), if they were in any way fascists.

    Actually, Boyd Rice is the only one i know claims to be fascist, but he might do that to provoke too... After all, he is even known to torture his audience with loud industrial noises and blinding lights
     
  20. JackNegativity

    JackNegativityExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 9, 2010
     
    @Shuei

    I think that came out wrong. I wasn't trying to claim Death in June was a nazi band. What I SHOULD have said, to be clear, was "I DOUBT these nazi accusations, I still <3 Death in June".
     
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