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I HATE THE RICH

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Anxiety69, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I believe that anarchy will only work after about 95 to 99 percent of the population is gone, lets face it, it wont come true with the amount of people on the planet today. END OF STORY.
     
  2. Lunadimae

    LunadimaeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I doubt Anarchy even has to be global, if it would somehow become global, then as I said before if country X revolts, country Y follows it.

    Then those countries would be divided into communities, similar to towns making coordination and management easier. Each community would be responsible for its needs at first then contact and other entertainment would be established, it can't happen overnight.
     
  3. silencekid

    silencekidMember New Member


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    Every post in this thread makes it more and more clear to me that there cannot be the anarchy and freedom without the -primitivism attached. The entire system is corrupt. The entire system is technology and civilization. You can't have either of those things anymore. You can't have money. You can't have roads, hospitals, factories, clock time, specialization of labor, mass production, etc. Having anarchy with -syndicalism or -communism attached is a perpetuation of the hierarchical system of death and, is thus, a complete fail. If you're going to replace everything civilization has given you anyway, you're just going to end up with the same civilization over and over again.

    Anytime humans are given specialized duties and tasks, and are mechanized to behave like robots, providing a repetitive service to other humans, then you are no longer an anarchy. You are a multi-organism machine composed of humans. If we return to hunter/gatherer communities, we'll spend a few hours a day looking for food and the majority of our time sitting around philosophizing, the way it was meant to be. The Earth is capable of providing all we need to live, but only if we stop the continual poisoning and destruction of it en masse. You won't belong to a factory like some working-class communist, because there won't even be a factory. Factories are inherently anti-life. Besides, no matter what it says on paper, you'll never own the factory. The factory owns you, always and forever. You're a slave to the product, a slave to the system of production. Do you think you can have an assembly line if people just come and go as they please, working only a few hours a day? Who the hell would even show up?

    In a true primitivist anarchy, medically speaking, there will be a return to shamanism and folk medicine which is said to be much more effective than the scientific method anyway. It's just that the way we are today, so dependent on technology, we have lost those skills. These skills were actively taken from us and erased from memory so we would be forced to work for others. It was a violent process of learned helplessness. However, those skills and many more can be rediscovered as we reestablish our connection with the Earth and allow our subconscious to flourish. I believe self-sufficiency and true autonomy are still possible if we become wild again and learn from nature.

    If you can't let go of technology and civilization, then you will always be a helpless, hopeless slave to a system. You have to give up civilized, technological niceties for true freedom. You have to return to nature and discover your undomesticated side. As soon as humans were domesticated, formed into organized society and forced to work for one another, freedom was lost and the leviathan began. Within civilization, anarchy is impossible. I firmly believe anarcho-syndicalism will never be more than a bunch of reds paying each other politically correct lip service, while still trying to control each others' lives. That's not a world I want to live in. Might as well be a fucking Republican.
     
  4. Eroneouse

    EroneouseMember Forum Member


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    Do not hate the rich but rather pity them as they unknowingly help to destroy the very system that currently makes them who and what they are.

    Personaly I do not think the current economic and social system of order will last more than a few more decades as it is a self destroying system. The economic system perpetrates its own death due to the interest rate concept. The social system is built around the economic system so when the one collapses under the weight of interest rates demanding there be more money than actually exists, as it is already doing to itself then the other will automatically follow the first into an all out fail.

    The capitalist world will fall into chaos as the majority try to follow age old customs and plays every man for himself and trys to grab as big a piece of the failing pie as they can in the assumption it will provide future security, this is what the major corporations are all currently doing. Marshall law and state control will become the norm as governments try to keep western capitolist societys < the population > in line with the accepted way of things.

    What ever type of society comes to us after capitolism destroys itself you can bet your boots that the people who control society now will be much the the same stock who attempt to control the one to follow. Power is a drug in itself and not one to be lost lightly just because an economic or social system failed.

    Mechanisation is another way the current system is helping to destroy itself, Mechanise a job and put 50,000 people out of work and that makes a shrinking job market even fuller with job seekers. Mechanisation equals profit right so mechanisation will continue to put more and more people out of work without creating a viable alternative employment prospect for those workers. So more people have less spending power and thus less personal power in our current world but what happens when mechanisation has put everyone in a robotic job out of work. That is eventually gonna be one hell of a lot of bored poor people.

    When the current system does fail utterly that is when the majority will start to look at alternatives like an anarchic system. That is if we can avoid a world war, the powers that be will likely try to lay the blame of the social collapse on some other political or religious ideal and mobilise the masses once more towards world war in order to inject new power and new debt into an age old monetary system we have all been conditioned to accept as the only way. I personaly think that Somalia will be the stageing post for the next world war, no functioning governemnt, warlords in control, ripe for invasion by the west, a good inroad to other African nations suffering turmoil, oh wait the UN is already there and now other nations are sending warships there to help quell the pirate problems. How long before the airstrikes begin.

    I know none of this adresses the OP's questions but in the world we live in those questions wont arise in more than a handful of communes scattered around the world intent on living their own pretty much secluded off the grid programs. Self subsidence and self reliance is one way to go, craft and barter is another way but whatever way pushes us forward it will likely be based on a reward system of some kind as we as humans respond well to that kind of system it is built into us from the hunter gatherer times.
     
  5. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    No, not end of the story, especially with so little arguments.

    Why anarchism wouldn't work with a big population ? We just need to organize the peoples at local level while thinking globally

    Anarcho-primitivism always made me laught, what a fucking regression. And sorry but what you are saying is really stupid, why no roads and no hospitals ? How can a population survive without hospitals ?

    For factories, the problem is not the factories but the way its managed. With autnomous auto-management there is no problem with the factories anymore.

    You definatly don't understand what anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism is all about. No such this as a hiearchical system of death.

    Anarcho-syndicalism is an horizontal organization (meaning no one is above anyone) not a vertical hiearchisation like in today's system

    As for anarcho-communism, let me guess, the word communism scares you and you still didn't understand anarcho-communism have nothing to do with URSS or communist china ?

    Explain us how anarcho-syndicalism or anarcho-communism is a hiearchy.

    Big contradiction here, anarcho-primitivism is typically "replacing everything the civilization has given you".

    And please also explain us how 100% of the population will agree to destroy their technology without forcing them to ? Anarcho-primitivism would be an authoritarian revolution. And it never happenned and never will. You don't have a single historical example to back up your anarcho-primitivism theories on.

    In an anarcho-communist society you would be free to start building your own primitivist community if you want, without forcing the whole society to follow you. I seriously don't see where is the problem with anarcho-communism.

    Primitivism is a pure utopia.

    And also, why are you using a computer if you're against technology ? Why do you listen to music and go to shows with electric guitars ? The studs on your jacket are made by factories. Your hair dye is made by workers and factories with chemical products. Your yellow Steel boots are made from leather in a china factory

    Sometimes it is necessary..

    i see no problem is 1) the workers agree to do the job and the jobs are rotating 2) the shop is auto-managed and everyone is equal

    Yeah with no technology, no electricity, no heating, no healthcare, no education, nothing. Back in yeah 1400. How awesome.

    If you want to live this way why don't you go build a house alone in the woods ?


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH this is the most funny part, please inform yourself about shamanism you absolutly have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry but what you say is bullshit, shamanism is unreliable and outdated. With your society you will quickly see a big increase of sickness and everyone will die of illness, all the old virus will come back and you will have no way to face it except a stupid shamanist method without any scientific base.

    If we use technology since YEARS for healthcare it's not because it's a big conspiracy, it's because it has proven its efficiency. Why do you think that sickness decreased during the last couple of hundreds of years ? Why do you think our medecine is most effective today than it was back 1000 years ago ? How can you explain that?

    Bullshit. You're a conspirationist ? Shamanism is stupid, please read a little on what you are talking about.

    Then why are you using a computer ? What are you waiting to go live in the nature without anything and die of sickness 2 years after ? I bet you couldn't even afford this way of life.

    Wow, RIDICULOUS ! Once again you don't know what you are talking about.

    Anarchy IS possible within civilization, it has been proven multiple times. Primitivism ISN'T POSSIBLE, it has NEVER been proven that it can work today.

    You are talking like if anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism never existed, well it did. Please read a little about the spanish revolution and the auto-organization of the workers in Argentina, also read about the CNT, CNT-AIT, CNT-FAI, POUM, etc... Also read about the Makhnovtchina, the commune of paris, the first international, the sailors of Kronsdadt, etc...
    Anarcho-Syndicalism isn't anything related to the bullshit you are saying, and it is far more serious than your anarcho-primitivist utopia.

    Saying shamanism is much more effective than scientific medecine is a BIG JOKE
     
  6. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    It depends of the place where you live.

    I'll take canada where i live for an example.

    In canada, a revolution wouldn't be possible without a worldwide global revolution.

    Just immagine what happens if canada becomes an anarchist country. The american was scared like shit when cuba became communist because it was too close from them, guess what would happen if canada becomes a so-called "unstable country" ?

    We would be able to send missiles and other attacks right from canada and bomb the US territory without even needing to leave our country, they would never accept that. If canada becomes unstable, the USA will invade canada and put a new leader.

    So a revolution in canada isn't possible without a revolution in USA.

    USA is the #1 world superpower, no one country from the OTAN would accept that the USA fall and become anarchist. So if there is a revolution in Canada and USA, the OTAN would invade both countries.

    So a revolution in canada wouldn't be possible without a revolution in USA, then a revolution in USA wouldn't be possible without a revolution in all countries from the OTAN and all of their allies. At this point, we are doing a worldwide global revolution
     
  7. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 16, 2010
     
    I understand what you're trying to say. Factories and a bunch of other things are all reminders of a corrupt, exploitive system and, in your opinion, the only way we could get rid of that system would be to return to a primitive system, reconnect with nature. Well, I used to be a primitivist before I became an anarcho-commie, but think about it in a more realistic way...How free would your society be when you had to worry about people always dying of sickness (admit that shamanism is, in the most part bullshit), winter and the lack of food resources etc. I mean, how would even keep the future generations smart without books, schools, communication with different people etc.? Face it, it wouldn't be that free, it wouldn't be that careless, it wouldn't be, like you said, "hunting a few hours a day looking for food and the rest of the time philosophizing", that's really naive.

    Anarchy isn't contrary to technology, technology helped us, it made us better survivors, more resistent. I agree that people relly on technology way too much this days but from that to wanting to exterminate all technology and go back thousands of years in time, is a HUGE step.

    And how would anarcho-communism be exploitative? It wouldn't be a bunch of reds controling each other's lives? Dude, were did you got that from? Anarcho-communism is about autogestion, support for the fellow man, it's about trust, about freedom, about self-respect, about acceptance, not control!

    Oh and how would we be slaves to the product if the product serves us? If WE produce it to help US and OUR community and, why not, if possible, the world? It's not about the money, as there would be no money, it's about helping each other, about brotherhood. Not about egoism and individualism, like anarcho-primitivism.

    Anyways, in an anarcho-communist society, if you would like to create your own community of anarcho-primitivists out in the woods/jungle/montains, dude, no one would stop you. Your life, your choice. Tolerance, respect... :)
     
  8. Jake

    JakeMember Forum Member


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    Jun 9, 2010
     
    With respect, i doubt you have ever been a garbageman or a doctor, so I dont know how you can come to the decision that one job is harder than the other. I would imagine that the benefits you got out of being a doctor (e.g helping and curing people, job satisfaction, an interesting and fascinating career etc etc) most probably outweigh those jobs you suppose to be easier. Also, a job may be easier intellectually but harder physically, or much more monotonous. You would hope people would be doctor not for the material gain.

    Also there would be no money. probably.

    PEACE!!!!
    xxxxxxxx
     
  9. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I realize there would probably be no money, but the concern is what is going to make people want the skills to do these things with no compensation. hopefully some will just for the sake of doing it, but i don't think enough people will.

    also it is redundant to say a garbageman's job is as hard as a doctors. Garbagemen do not deal with life and death, they pick up trash and haul it away. Physicality is different yes, but skiills and emotional repercussions are not remotely comparable.
     
  10. Jake

    JakeMember Forum Member


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    well i disagree completely.

    also if you were to ask someone the question 'what would you rather be, a doctor or a binman?' i imagine that would answer your question as to why people would choose to do what in your opinion is a harder jon

    x
     
  11. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    nice of you to back that opinion up... (sarcasm because u clearly don't.)
     
  12. Jake

    JakeMember Forum Member


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    Well that wasnt very nice was it, and dont worry Im from England i can understand sarcasm. That and im not a fucking idiot

    I dont know how you want me to back something up that is based just on an opinion i have about what each job entails. Would you like me to narrate to you my entire life experiences, thoughts and feelings that i have gained in the field of being a doctor or being a binman.


    Anyway i dont know why this has got unfriendly i started off very kindly and you have been mean
     
  13. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Why cant someone disagree just for the sake that they dont agree with you? My facts to back it up is, I FUCKING HATE YOU.

    My facts also for backing up the fact that anarchy wont work witha large population like the people of lets say america is because of all the diverse opinions, racism, sexism, hatred, violence and oh yea, history!

    no but in all seriousness, most of you hate the rich because your not rich, you can say im wrong, but i know that im right, deep down inside you, you know i am too.
     
  14. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    ok i didnt mean for it to get unfriendly, i just don't know where you are coming from in your opinion, and i don't understand your point of view on the subject.

    LOl hey, at least that is a reason i can understand.
     
  15. Protspecd

    ProtspecdExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    In my opinion, you do bring up a good point. I can only imagine how insane the feeling must be to be operating on someone who is on the edge of death and you must bring them away from that edge. Imagine the feeling knowing you made a bad decision which ended up killing a child who was sick. Why should I be put under that stress when there are many other jobs that doesn't have that terrifying feeling. Maybe it does take that special someone to want help people in that way and are able to deal with those emotions. I admire people with that kinda trait because I don't think I would be able to cope.

    To the previous discussion on factories. I do agree with ungovernable, there is nothing wrong with factories it is how they are run which is the problem. If we are looking at a global scale anarchy society, you will need factories to help supply everyone with what they need. What you would need is an equal floor in the factory, a fair shift allocation between the workers. Also modern medicine has improved life expectancy by a fair amount over the years and have been able to cure many diseases that would otherwise killed you. If you are going to go live in a primitive life style I will give you a tip, I heard leeches are pretty good for curing a lot of stuff =P
     
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