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Fundamental question

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ungovernable, Dec 17, 2009.

  1. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Does theft involve getting something in return ?
     

  2. disfuck

    disfuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    i guess if you steal something then you get something , or do you mean a punishment ????
     
  3. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    No, then the term "theft" wouldnt be used, unless the asshole that you gave something to in "return" wanted what you took back... what an asshole
     
  4. chesticles

    chesticlesActive Member Forum Member


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    i think the most bullshit justification of theft is when someone says they need it more than you do.
    so is it anarchist to steal your own capital from the gain of others?
    not so independent..
     
  5. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    So if theft involve getting something, then how can anarcho-punk.net steal from the bands if we get nothing in return ?
     
  6. instantlybent

    instantlybentActive Member Forum Member


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    not trying to be obstinant but why dont you debate this in the thread about what youre talking about, instead of starting this one? is it because im not posting in this one, only people from here? im not trying to fight you. im actually trying to discuss this with you.
     
  7. instantlybent

    instantlybentActive Member Forum Member


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    my friend just posted this at pe, perhaps youd find it interesting:

    "I haven't responded in this thread (about pe/ap, downloading etc), cause all I'd say is people should ask the bands permission.

    However it's somewhat amusing how old this argument is. Not the one about MP3s, but anarchist stealing from anarchist is.

    In 1897 when Peter Kropotkin was exiled in England, he witnessed several comrades stealing goods from one anarchist that ran a store. They felt justified by doing it, saying that those who were best able shoul cover the cost, "To each according to his need." Well he felt so moved by that, to write up a lovely pamphlet condemning their behaviour, called Anarchist Morality or Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. I had this lovely copy or it, that was published in this adorable pocket sized edition. Ironically enough, it was stolen by some travelling kid visiting Montreal for the Anarchist Bookfair."
     
  8. disfuck

    disfuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    i dont know
     
  9. instantlybent

    instantlybentActive Member Forum Member


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    also to say that you "get nothing" is untrue, you get music. as someone in a band i spend time almost every day building a network of contacts for touring, writing music/lyrics, rehearsing, maintaining our tour van etc. and thats a lot of work, not "nothing".
     
  10. instantlybent

    instantlybentActive Member Forum Member


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    oh, and i also see you have a pay pal account set up to the upper left there. so you also "get" donations from people to your site, which is here as a forum for uploading/downloading/trading music files of bands like mine.
     
  11. theoldpunk

    theoldpunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    instantlybent, you also have to remember that ungovernable still seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of Proudhon's asserion that 'property is theft', despite mine and others attempts to explain it to him some time back.

    Don't bother getting caught up in this argument with him, or you'll end up on the receiving end of completely misinterpreted 'facts' and spittle-flecked rants about how Dan is living some kind of champagne lifestyle off of the backs of 'real' punks. For whatever reason, he seems unable to take a level-headed approach to the whole issue - just metioning Dan or PE triggers some kind of brain fart that causes him to lose any sense of reality.

    It's getting tedious, kid.
     
  12. instantlybent

    instantlybentActive Member Forum Member


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    fair enough. but the issue IS one that i think CAN be resolved in a way thats positive and undermines the effrorts of the mainstream music industry to boot. even in the past few hours i came on here and posted about it, other people floored ideas that seemed fairly practical to me (for instance, uploaders being responsible for sending an email from said bands along with their upload). its just too bad that it came to this, as, like ive said before, i think this is a cool forum otherwise. oh well.

    also i like the expression "spittle-flecked".
     
  13. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Hahahah, yeah right. Seeing your understanding of Proudhon's theories i bet you never read a book by him.

    I own a couple of real books by proudhon, and i have made a section on my website with proudhon's bio and all his writtings.
    So you ain't going to teach me what anarchy is or what proudhon's views are.

    You want to come down to insults ? Well, Fuck you grandpa.

    And every time i give my opinion about PE it seems to trigger some kind of rage to you because i attack your hero.

    You who teach me lessons on anarchism, maybe you should remember anarchism is all about self-criticism and questionning everthing, everyone, even ourselves and who are supposedly on our side.

    How the fuck you expect me to stay calm when those peoples call me fake anarchist, thief, they pretend i never go to gigs, they pretend i don't do anything for anarchy or for the scene, and they keep repeating this bullshit since 4 months.

    With arguments as much elaborated as your's, maybe you should join PE community, their insults and "arguments" are on the same level as your's, you'd fit better there maybe?

    How can i misinterpret an evidence ?


    The downloader get music.

    We, as a website distributing music, get nothing in return

    You're talking about something you don't even understand.

    1) We make no profit out of this websites, and so far we only received a few (small) donations. This isn't even enough to pay all the hosting fees. This is very different from Dan PE who ask $100 per month for a server costing $4 per month, plus he put ads on the websites, etc....
    2) The paypal donation on the left side is to save Resistance network, the biggest network of communities for anarchists and punks/antifa skinheads. We make no god damn profit out of it neither. We need this money because we are being sued by a company, all details are available on pirate-punk.net including proofs we make no profit

    i like the expression "fuck you"
     
  14. theoldpunk

    theoldpunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    See what I mean?
     
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Oh yeah right, i suppose when i get insulted i should answer by throwing flowers

    When someone hit you on the left cheek you show him the right cheek so he can hit you again! that's so punk rawk anarky fawk the system dood
     
  16. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    :lmao: I gotta give it to you 'kid' you don't back down, I really like that... stick to your guns. UP THE RADICAL PUNKS INDEED By the way this proves my point on the other thread we are not a bunch of yes men....we have brains and we know how to use them
     
  17. theoldpunk

    theoldpunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    As it happens, I have read 'What Is Property?', although not in the original French. I read it back when all we had were books too. Simply owning a book or posting Proudhon's works on your website doesn't mean a thing - reading, analysing and understanding the material is what matters. You've failed to do that with 'What Is Property?' in quite a spectacular fashion.

    Look, when this all started, I made a polite post pointing out where I thought you were wrong, where I thought Dan was wrong, and where I thought there was common ground.

    However, you chose to continue with 'arguments' devoid of reason, intelligence or fact. That's not a particularly clever way to deal with someone who you feel has insulted you.

    On the other hand, Dan sent me a polite email discussing the points I made and ended up agreeing with much of what I was saying about sharing music online.

    One last thing - WHY ARE YOU RIPPING OFF THE MEMBERS OF AP WITH APPEALS FOR SOFTWARE LICENCE MONEY? DON'T YOU KNOW THERE ARE FREE ALTERNATIVES OUT THERE?

    (in case you didn't realise, that last line wasn't serious at all, I was just using the same 'logic' you used when you 'analysed' Dan's hosting costs and his need for a dedicated server)
     
  18. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    The diference is Old Punk, Dan will delete a post or ban a user when he doesn't like the viewpoint, I was on the other day watching the thread when he did this. Lame to say the least....I don't see instantlybent's thoughts being censored here nor yours... huge diference
     
  19. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    I thought it was obvious that if i buy a book or post a writting on a website it's because i have read it and i support it.

    So what ? It makes you feel proud that your punk rawk hero is happy that you defend him like a guard dog ?

    And what about your punk rock hero and your famous label ? Their arguments of calling us thieves, fake anarchists, posers who never go to gigs..... it's constructive or intelligent ?

    Now that's just stupid. Just shut up if you don't even know what you are talking about.

    We have NO CHOICE of using this software, we aren't a crappy forum like Profane Existence. This is a fucking popular forum that needs either a dedicated server or a decent software. If we don't buy the software, we will end up spending MORE money on hosting fees

    Your argument is still ridiculous.

    The fact is still that dan is ripping peoples off because his hosting cost $4/month we proved it by locating the hosting company using the same IP as Profane Existence domain.
     
  20. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    By the way, we are being sued for using a software i made myself. The problem is that it's based on a software by a big company.

    So don't tell me about alternative, this is almost a 100% diy fucking website since almost all traces of the original software disseapeared
     
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