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Why do punks forget about the xenophobic past of skinhead?

Discussion in 'New members introductions' started by Chao Li, Apr 25, 2020.

  1. Chao Li

    Chao LiMember New Member


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    I can't understand how punks are in favour of the union with skinheads if it's a public knowledge that paki-bashing happend, violence against homeless happend, even though they try to say that it was nazi's guilty, which also we know that's not true.
    Just because someone say that is antifascist, I can't call it a friend, and forget all the past that they carry behind.
    (no, I'm not confusing SHARPS or RASH with bone or nationalists. I'm saying that these events came in the origin of the movement)
    If someone wants materials about it, just write me
     

    Attached Files:


  2. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Why do you say punks forget? I don't think any punks here have forgotten, but I also don't think you can stereotype skinheads as all being xenophobic.
     
  3. Chao Li

    Chao LiMember New Member


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    so, tell me, if punk had this history would you call yourself punk?
    I can't see the coherence of someone who considers himself antifascist, but wear clothes and defend a culture that was born above prejudice against asians and violence against homeless and "tramps". I don't care if you (in a general conception) do actions antifascists, if you strengh the underground scene, but still fly the flags of all what skinhead represented.
    Any movement can't be reed only by what it is now, but also by it's history.
    So, my point is that for being antifascist you don't need to identify as punk, as skinhead, or any kind of title. If you choose to be one of them is because you agree to represent all the meaning of it, including the past.
    I'm not saying that skinheads are now xenophobics, but they choose to represent a culture that once was.
    (I'm brazilian and I don't know if what I want to say is being well expressed, but i'm trying to speak english in my best)
     
  4. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    First of all don't assume who you are talking to, your assumptions are what make your generalized statements a stereotype. Are you the authority on Skinhead culture? Professor Chao Li? So Jamaican Skinheads have always been racist and xenophobic? You are mistaken and dogmatic in your statements, and you are no authority, it is simply your opinion, and quite a misinformed one. Lost in translation from Portuguese to English has nothing to do with it.
     
  5. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Sorry but this post is full of prejudices and generalizations. I'm not a skinhead, but maybe before bashing an entire subculture you should better inform yourself and learn about the origins of the skinhead culture. Just by reading the Wikipedia page for "Skinheads" would prove you wrong.

    You said "these events came in the origin of the movement" but this is not true. The origin of the skinhead movement lies in the unity between black & whites. The roots of skinhead reggae came from Jamaican culture.

    It is only many years after the beginning of the skinhead movement that neo-nazis began trying to re-appropriate the movement with Skrewdriver and the '80 national front movement in UK. Pretty much the same thing happened with the punk movement. Neo-nazi punk bands started appearing in the '80 but now we are in 2020 and nobody will pretend that punk sucks because some stupid nazis tried to reclaim the punk movement in the '80.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
     
  6. Chao Li

    Chao LiMember New Member


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    the paki-bashing is not directly related to the boneheads (yes, I know the history of jamaican immigrants in the UK on 60's/70's, and the history of skinhead). Every time that I make this criticism people think (1) that I didn't study the origin of the movement and (2) that I blame skinhead for the nazi's actions, but I'm not judging the skinhead history for the nazi appropriation, because anyone can appropriate a movement like you said about punk.
    But the paki-bashing was an event that came in the 70's, and, again, is not directly related to the boneheads. So why do we withdraw the responsibility of the movement if these things weren't made by nazi?

    I wish that the zine attached to my post could be in english, but there are plenty sources in the internet that shows the paki-bashing was beyond nazi stuff.

    The foundation of this violence against homeless and "tramps" was that they were a shame for the "working class", and against asians was that they were stealing jobs
     
  7. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    You aren't shedding light on anything new, everything you are stating is known, what is reprehensible is that you insist on assigning blame to an entire subculture for the actions of a percentage of that subculture. It's like saying, the Nazis were predominantly German, thus all Germans are Nazis. It's wrong and it's dogmatic. You are attempting to judge an entire subculture for the actions of a percentage of that subculture. Estas equivocado compañero.
     
  8. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Again you are making generalizations based on prejudices and putting all people in the same baskets based on the actions of a minority of the movement. We're in 2020 and the anti-racist skinheads have nothing to do with 1970 paki bashing. Do you realize that was 40 years ago? Most skinheads today weren't even alive in 1970.

    Skinheads like SHARP and RASH are our allies, and your attitude of creating divisions in the scene is absolutely counter-productive. We should be encouraging skinheads who take a stand against racism because it makes our racist enemies lose ground. Telling all anti-racists to cut ties with the skinhead movement would just encourage boneheads to prosper and gain ground.

    There will always be idiots trying to re-appropriate legit movements. I mean there's even an Anarcho-Nationalist movement and a Christian Punk scene ...

    Responsibility of the movement? Wtf is this? It sounds like the people who say we should all Muslims should be held accountable for the actions of the Islamic State.

    This forum is about unity between punks & skins so I am not sure why you registered an account here just to encourage divisions and fighting against each other.
     
  9. Chao Li

    Chao LiMember New Member


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    Generalization is thinking that all south america speaks spanish..
    My point is that if you choose to be a skinhead you carry all it once meant. There is no coherence in being antifascist and choosing to be part of a culture that have violence against minority in it's origins.
    And the example that you gave doesn't have any similarity, because german born german, they don't choose that. If neonazis 40 years later decides to be antifascist I'm going to forget what they did just because now they don't do that anymore?
    I'm not trying to do anything, I want to discuss only, see different opinions and argue with.
    I see people beyond it's title, and search coherence from what they believe and practice.
    The example of Muslim is other thing that isn't similar, because it's a religion that you just believe, isn't something connected to convictions.
    Why choosing to be something that in the past were oppressive (and not because nazi's appropriated that)?

    Part of the zine:

    In “Subculture: the meaning of style”, the sociologist Dick Hebdige adds: “Less easily assimilated than @s Caribbean immigrants in welcoming the community, clearly differentiated only by racial characteristics, but by religious rituals, food customs and value systems that encouraged deference, frugality and profit, @s Pakistanis were chosen for the brutal attention from skinheads, both white as blacks. ”
    (...)
    It may even be that there are well-intentioned people in this story whole, but what becomes incomprehensible is that if in theory there is such a gap deep between skinheads supposedly Anarchists and Communists and Skinheads White Powers, what is the meaning of a cultural identification common to both? AND this mainly taking into account consideration all the history that the skinhead has been in the world since its inception! Would not be more consistent to a person who claims to be libertarian seek to distance themselves from all this?
     
  10. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Now you're just trolling, my native language is Spanish, I have many many Brazilian compañ[email protected] that speak both Portuguese and Spanish, you're the only person here making very ignorant generalizations 'compañero'. From your style of debate I can see you are not here to raise polemics but only here to raise divisions. Maybe you should concentrate your 'antifascism' in your local community as there seems to be more than plenty coming from your area of the world. You came here making very general accusations and so far you can back zero of it up.
     
  11. Chao Li

    Chao LiMember New Member


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    Spanish is not a language that we learn in school. I came here with this discussion because I wanted to see different views from parts of the world beyond Brazil. My local direct actions are still up. Why don't talk about this? Really, I want to try to understand other points of view which, until the moment, didn't seem logical.
    The reasons that brazilians discuss may be not the same in other scenes.
     
  12. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    So you registered on a forum preaching unity, only to come preaching for divisions, with no better argument than something that happened 40 years ago?
     
  13. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Well for a nation that is surrounded on all sides by Spanish speaking nations, maybe that's a problem. Are you taught English in school? I've spent 6 years in prison for antifascist actions, and I've had radical Black, Philippino, Caucasian, and Mexican skinheads as allies and accomplices. Now if I had listened to a point of view such as yours, maybe I'd be dead. Think about what you are saying and find the problem in your argument yourself. If you can't do that, then question your own dogmatism.