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Who is backing the next revolution...

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by QueerPunk, Jul 4, 2011.

  1. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Disclaimer: Please if you must comment and ask question about the article, ask about the claim it is making based on the merits and not of the source because nothing screws with logical and rational discussions like ad-hominem and straw-man fallacies. The Left and Right are guilty of falling into these traps...


    NB: US-based National Endowment for Democracy regularly provides funding to opposition candidates in elections in countries other than the USA.

    According to Allen Weinstein, one of the founders of NED, "A lot of what we [NED] do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA".



    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ?page=full

    http://www.activistpost.com/2011/07/cia ... -asia.html

    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/ ... llege.html

    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/ ... tions.html
     

  2. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    some more information about otpor, with more details about the financing via us-organisations in the german article (finanzierung...) and the main source of their doctrines: gene sharp & his backgrounds:
    Egyptian activist and journalist Hossam el-Hamalawy:
    "Not only was Mubarak’s foreign policy hated and despised by the Egyptian people, but parallels were always drawn between the situation of the Egyptian people and their Palestinian brothers and sisters. The latter have been the major source of inspiration, not Gene Sharp, whose name I first heard in my life only in February after we toppled Mubarak already and whom the clueless NYT moronically gives credit for our uprising."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor!
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Sharp

    i participated some years ago in one of otpors "trainings" but broke it up quickly because i was really pissed by the gospel-like way they promoted their version of civil disobedience. discussions about the final aim of a serious campaign directed against the state always ended up with a "we don't want a revolution, we want a change..." - by looking at what's left of otpor and the "heroes" of the past....
    DON'T FOLLOW LEADERS!
     
  3. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    [​IMG]

    you can't seriously believe this bullshit can you?
    The NED does stuff like trying to legitimise the Honduran Coup regime, or funds sell-out/CIA infiltrated unions in Colombia that are affliated with the AFL-CIO. It is an organisation that acts to further US geo-political interests, thus, in regards Egypt, common sense would suggest that the NED would be uninterested, at best, but more likely concerned, with any protest movement that sort to undermine the US-backed Mubarak regime.

    Using the 'fact' that some Egyptians and otpor use a raised fist image as 'evidence' of a US backed secret coup conspiracy within a number of these articles is hilarious in the extreme. The reds under the beds are funded by the US State Department now?
     
  4. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    may i ask where/who the "reds" under the bed are? at least otpor was - in my experience - very far from being anything else than "democratic"...
    there's no need to conspire, if you can pay employees who do it in the open.
     
  5. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weight_of_Chains

    So first we drive the people crazy, finally starting a civil war with 2 millions deaths and hundreds of thousands leaving their homes, then we pay for otpor to get rid of ol'milo and the like? Sounds somehow familiar... from Saddam up to Boom Laden?
     
  6. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I'm not suggesting otpor are 'reds', rather the articles listed by Queerpunk do; albeit 'reds' under control of 'globalist' 'financial bankers' who wish to impose 'global governance'. The 'evidence' for such laughable claims amount to the fact that both otpor and egyptian protestors used the clenched fist as a logo (and in the article 'CIA Coup Army Uncovered in Asia' also "Marxists and dupes" in Malaysia and Thailand, fuck the article even refers to the clenched fist as the 'otpor fist', despite its use by basically every leftist group/movement ever).

    Like most 'illuminati'/'new world order'/'one world government'/'zeitgeist'/'repitilians'/'prison planet'/'protocols of Zion' conspiracies, the articles posted by Queerpunk should be dismissed as the utter bullshit they are.
    In short these articles make you dumber, although they can be rather amusing.
     
  7. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Your mom. :D
     
  8. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Unlike some alleged "Anarchists" I actually DO oppose the status quo instead of wishing to protect it.
    If you want to argue using fallacies and defy the basic laws of logic (ie pathetic ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments) then go ahead but it will merely show that you have no grasp on the simple concepts of rational argument.

    If you bothered to have an open mind you would actually look at every angle of an issue and look at the claims instead of making knee-jerk style criticisms based on guilt by association and dismisssing the claim without having even read into it.

    The link from the Foreign Policy magazine is not a crackpot site. That magazine is put out by the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) who are a very much a mainstream source. It was the first link I posted. Going by your comments it would seem that you haven't read the first link.
     
  9. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    because of this i wasn't spending too much efford on these:
    i was born close to the last residence of adam weisskraut (the guy who never made it to the americas, but died as a regarded member of the bavarian "enlighted" upper society - when his youthful transgressions were almost forgotten after the napoleonic wars and the liberalization that came with the french over this 'till then somewhat backward and absolutist country).
    i'm still suffering from the "believes" of my parents - a really weird mix of local patriotism and stuff made up by davi dicke and the like - not to mention their complete and utter apathy concerning activism and resistance against the state as a tool of the capitalist rule, i guess the brutal reality isn't mythically enough for action.
    so it seems to me that i underestimated the "conspicrazy" quite a bit, sorry for that - and i agree as long as we don't put queerpunks disclaimer into place and discuss the different aspects of the case:
    BUT:
    the influence and activity of high level economic "leaders" on foreign relations is a fact too, even if it's not a worldwide concerted action of a "illuminated" secret society of blooddrinking alien reptiles...
    the ongoing economic struggle against the rest of the world brings out the CEO-patriots funding all kind of dubious organisations and groups, maybe in cooperation with some secret services of the state, maybe not - i guess we'll never know for sure.
    some days ago i was reading an article about the terrorist bombing of alfred herrhausen (chairman of the deutsche bank, he was promoting debt cancellation for "third world" nations and a moderate/fair economic exchange to help them modernize their societies - was it only bad luck that he wasn't protected with bodyguards and security commandos and had to die in a more than simple booby trap waiting for his car besides the road?
    capitalism isn't a monolithic block ruled by a centralized group of all-knowing supercriminals, it's just an economic system that brings out the criminal traits of people promoting the old "the means justify the..." and going for profits and power proverbially over dead bodies.
    the more influence they gain, the more serious their crimes become in the geo-strategics and in the intern politics.

    we had some local discussions about the "fist"-issue and some other aspects of otpors "influence" on the northafrican and near east uprisings - i can't call them revolutions and for the record:
    i don't want to dimish the courage and perseverance of the fighting people there, but there wasn't any real change.
    some of my mates come from egypt and still find it more than an odd thing to see black flags with a fist emblem on many of the photos from cairo. in the muslim culture the black flag is closely related with the prophet mohammed, since the early 90's it's used almost only by the "fundamentalist/terrorist" muslim groups - and the fist as a symbol of the european working class movements has no background in the orients.
    the fist dominating the media coverage is the very same "right" fist used by otpor some years ago in yugoslavia, later in the ukraine and georgia - now appearing in malaysia and thailand too?
    the "belgrad center for non-violent activism" (= otpor's "inheritors") claims that they had "met" activists from tunesia, egypt and iran (!), the claim is already featured in a documentary made by an us-director/producer and spread all over the world - making otpor the spearhead of the resistance against "oppression"?
    according to the majority of media-reports about otpor their funding is based on exceptional characters and philanthropes like georges soros and his "open society" - or the us-ambassador Richard Miles, who supported (surprise, surprise!!!) in the 90' the anti-milosevic-protests in belgrad. the very same richard miles was also ambassador in tiflis/georgia when "kmara" organized the political campaigns against Eduard Schewardnadses government.
    in the previous post we already mentioned some of the known sources of their funding - not mentioned by the mainstream media, but proven as a fact - and this fact and some other dubious aspects should make us very carefully watching "organized" resistance promoted by media-heroes in the future.
     
  10. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    ... and mum and dad are still waiting for the zombie-ss-division from the bottom of nearby lake totenkopf???!!! :'(

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mi ... iplomat%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros
    &
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution
     
  11. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    yes, they do :o - but what about this herrhausen-theory???
     
  12. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    As far as I know Alfred Herrhausen was well protected - there was a second car with lots of bodyguards and he himself was well aware of the possibility to become a "terrorist" target and he made some precautions for the worst case.
    His bad luck was the sophisticated infra-red/remote controlled bomb, using a chopper plate and a highly explosive charge, making the device working similiar to a anti-tank missile, piercing through the armoured car like butter.
    There are still mysteries about the unusual bomb, a crown witness/informer of the federal police office with serious psychological problems and a drug addiction, some suspects were arrested and went free again, another important witness died... lotsa mysteries for the "believers"...
    Personally I think it's not really important if the capitalist system killed one of it's own because he became more or less a deviant, or if the stasi did it, or the raf, herrhausen did a dirty job, now somebody else is doing it - there is always somebody else already waiting... and you can't change that with bombs.
     
  13. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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  14. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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  15. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Middle East and Maghreb: Repression and exploitation, the two matches that lit the fire of the ‘popular uprising’


    The Next Egyptian Revolution

     
  16. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    As my smart grandmother always says:
    This is the beginning, not the end!
    :ecouteurs: \m/ :ecouteurs:
     
  17. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    your grandmom... is right!
     
  18. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    yr grandma is obviously on the payroll of the ZOG globalist CIA 'international bankers'!!! :o :o :o :o :ecouteurs:
     
  19. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Objection, yer honor! She might be on Eric Burdons payroll (frightening young punks with "It's My Life" out from under the kitchen table after a very wet night a thousand years ago, she might be the only woman able to play bavarian bagpipes while looking like Mary Travers in her best time - and it might even be true that she visited Karl Liebknecht 1917 in jail when she was 8 years old and her dad one of Rosa Luxemburgs accomplices - but you can't shoot her:
    Years ago I made a bet with her, that she will chase the cats away from my grave - or else I would stop smoking.
    It is a bet which must be won! Don't make me loose it! {pleure} {pleure} :ecouteurs: {pleure}
     
  20. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    sorry, quitting smoking is reactionary anywayz
     
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