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Ukraine

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by room 217, May 5, 2014.

  1. room 217

    room 217Member New Member


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    May 4, 2014
     
    What do you all think of the 40 people killed in Odessa by Right Sector? Or the 'People's Republics' of Donetsk, Odessa etc. How genuine are they? Should other countries be getting involved? What do you think should be done about the fighting in Slavyansk?
    Keen to hear some new perspectives on what's happening in the south and east, considering that neo-nazis are in positions of power to some extent on both sides.
     

  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    The massacre was comitted by neo-nazis from Svoboda and Right Sector. Ukraine is turning into civil war but its not going to help of foreign countries get involved. It will turn out into a battlefield for USA and USSR. We don't need another cold war.

    What we need is international brigades to fight against the fascists in Ukraine and help our comrades. Something like what was done during the spanish civil war. The ukranian neo-nazis are already getting organized internationally and i've read a couple articles showing proofs that neo-nazis from other countries (Sweden and Greece only to name a few) travelled to Ukraine in order to help their comrades. Antifascists needs to do the same thing or they will lose the fight.

    Today, an antifascist was hanged by the neo-nazis in Ukraine: http://ukraine-human-rights.org/right-s ... n-citizen/
     
  3. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    I've also read that pro russian forces have support from neo-nazi movement especially in Serbia ( chetniks ). If antifa were to join this civil war, they would have to be well organized and many in numbers because this civil war is between 2 different radical right-wing sides and I'm not sure that international antifa movement is ready to fight it.
     
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    You are right, and many of them are ex-soldiers.

    But oh well, the spanish army was also very well trained in 1936, and they still got crushed by men and women who had very little military experience. Never underestimate the power of the people united :D
     
  5. Paczilla

    PaczillaExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I think its getting to the point where if you're an ethnic minority or any minority, you should leave the country, or arm yourself and people like you. Alot of the jewish population is already fleeing to israel, and they've already started killing and rounding up tatars. Don't be surprised if you start seeing some ethnic cleansing going on soon.
     
  6. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    I'm pretty sure that antifa resistance is nearly impossible, though this is my opinion and I'm often considered as a pessimist. The thing is that you have to look at other European countries which are mainly right-wing ( I'm not sure if I am able to call them fascist, because people tend to label everything as communist / fascist these days ) and which give support to Ukraine right wing parties. Look at all the Slavic speaking countries, France, Greece etc. they are all filled with right-wing scum. Common people are supporting right-wing parties in Ukraine because they are considered 'patriotic'. And you must also take Russian imperialism throughout history into consideration. Many people think that Russians are not even part of Europe, and that they are trying to 'invade again' like they did in WW2. The result of this is rise of the right wing political parties who support each other.

    I'm afraid I don't have to mention how well armed the fascists in Ukraine are ? Yes, anarchists may have won battles in Spanish civil war but the situation is a lot different than the one back in '36. There is no war between right and left here ( or whatever ), it's 2 sides both inspired by imperialism and fascism and as I've already said I'm afraid there is no room for antifa movement here.

    Funny thing is that history seems to repeat itself and I'm not happy to use Lenins quote here but 'Fascism is capitalism in decay'.
     
  7. room 217

    room 217Member New Member


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    May 4, 2014
     
    The UK Independence Party (extreme right-wingers) spokesman Nigel Farage said he highly admired Putin and how he handled the situation in eastern Ukraine. Putin's the obvious symbol of anti-EU sentiment (UKIP's only real 'policy' is getting Britain out of the EU) I assumed other right wing parties in Europe like the National Front etc. felt the same way about the EU and glorified Putin.

    How genuine does everyone think the Donetsk People's Republic is? I've heard conflicting evidence as to how widespread actual Pro-Russian sentiment is - one survey I saw said only around 30% believe in becoming part of Russia, while another 30% would prefer a unified Ukraine, with around 20% for independence from both. Wondering if anyone's heard any differently
     
  8. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    As far as I know only Jobbik and National Front criticized Svoboda. I've heard that Golden Dawn doesn't support right-wing movement in Ukraine as well, but I'm not sure if this is true since I know that Svoboda supports Golden Dawn activities in Greece. I'm pretty sure that NPD supports right wing parties in Ukraine as well as lots of Slavic countries ( not including Serbs ). A lot of people on Balkan think that this is a anti-communist ( anti-Russia ) fight and that is the reason why they support Ukraine ( for example, Croatia made a festival to support Ukraine struggle ). I'm sure they also get lot of support from Poland and Czech republik. Not to mention USA, but that's a whole other story.

    Bosnian 'anarhists' support Ukraine without criticising fascism which is clearly on the rise there :

    http://www.source.ba/clanak/81935441860 ... ref=ostali

    You can see how most people on Balkan feel, even liberals and so called anarchists. I'm not trying to generalize, I live here and this part of Europe probably has completely different view of this 'war'.
     
  9. room 217

    room 217Member New Member


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    May 4, 2014
     
     
  10. Narodna

    NarodnaNew Member New Member


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    May 11, 2014
     
    sorry for my bad english, but i was asked to relate this
    from a group of italian/german/french/serbo-croat/polish migrant birds that flew east:

    today the memorandum for the Donetsk People's Republic is held and there is hardly a doubt about the "pro-russian" outcome, especially after yesterdays attack and shootout between by units of Arsen Awakovs very own ukraninan police, units of the national guard and the army.

    Arsen Awakovs official version on facebook and elsewhere:
    some sixty heavily armed "terrorists" tried to storm and occupy the mariupol police headquarter, the attacked police forces asked for help and the re-inforcing troup of national guard and army killed 20 of the aggressors and took another 4 prisoner.
    on a video recorded in the vicinity of the headquarter some lightly armed people in civilian clothes can be seen, but it's not quite clear who these people are or what their role in the conflict was.
    there is no official documentation about the twenty dead "terrorists", while six of the documented victims were identified as members of the local police force and the ukrainian army.
    another video documents the retreat of army units from the vicinity of the police headquarter, shooting wildly as if in panic and hitting several unarmed civilians, amongst these victims one is possibly dead.
    building of the police headquarters is now a smoking ruin, the area around it shows traces of heavy armor.

    the inofficial version of witnesses from mariupol and three migrant birds:
    soldiers in unmarked battlegear stormed into the headquarters building, supported by armored personal carriers and machineguns suppression-firing on the building.
    the big ???
    the building was occupied by the local mariupol police force!
    according to an interviewed member of the police the attack was an act of revenge for the mutiny of the police men against their commander Walerij Andrjuschuk and their refusal his orders to attack protesters and looters from mariupol on the streets.
    the ukrainian ministry of the interior reports Walerij Andrjuschk as "missing" and possibly taken hostage by "terrorists".
    on the ukrainian army left a barracks area in the city which was promptly looted by civiians, but it isn't clear if weapons and ammunition were captured. on the other hand several arms-shops were broken up and sacked to the last bullet - but by now the weapons haven't resurfaced in the hands of individuals or organized groups.
    the atmosphere in the city is relatively quiet and sometimes chaotic, young people (sometimes drunken) move singing on the streets and some barricades were erected here and there, two burned out APC and at least one abandoned but obviously undamaged battletank are reported which may be seen as left behind by army-deserters or defectors.
    there is no visible activity of rightwing groups or facist militia, ukranian army and national guard are manning several checkpoints at some of the roads leading into the city.
    several hundreds of soldiers have set up a camp at the mariupol airport, they are commanded by Semjon Semjontschenko who announced that his forces aren't fighting against the people of mariupol, but against armed separatistis.
    asked to give a statement about the reliability or loyality to the ukranian state he refused to give an answer, he also remained silent about the possible presence of maidan-militias like the "dombass" bataillon.

    finally:
    there are several flocks of migrant birds from all over europe busily setting up communication lines and networks, documenting events and interviewing people about their experiences and views on the crisis. there are blogspots and messageboards in the planning to relate reports and interviews out of the crisis areas.
    like the report above the results may differ greatly from the picture given by the controlled mass media, which are regarded as abused or infiltrated by the FSB or the ukrainian ministry of the intern and maybe even western security services.
    between the networking groups is something like a general consent that involvement in violent confrontations is at the decision of groups and individuals but armed action is to be evaded unless a situation becomes lifetreatening for the activists or the people they are with.
    by now none of the involved groups declared taking side for the ukrainian or the russian aggressors in the conflict.
     
  11. room 217

    room 217Member New Member


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    May 4, 2014
     
    Alleged phone call between Russian neo-nazi Alexander Barkashov (Russian National Unity leader) and seperatist Dmytro Boitsov, discussing falsification of Donetsk independence referendum results: [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J18RziLIl30[/video]
     
  12. blackchat

    blackchatMember Forum Member


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    Jan 24, 2014
     
    Hey

    Been a while nobody posted on this thread but this answers a question discussed above, as there are actually Spanish antifascists who went all the way to Donetsk to fight for Novorossia against the Kiev neonazi battalions. When they returned to Spain guess what happened...

    Source article

    The communique in Spanish by these guys: https://comitedeapoyoalaucraniaantifasc ... -palomino/
     
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