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Transexualism

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by AnarchoFem, May 8, 2010.

  1. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    Okay, I have had a question that has been bugging me for over a year now. First and foremost, I want to say that I have no problems with transexuals whatsoever, it is no business of mine what they want to do to their own bodies. But here's the question, what does it mean to be transexual/transgender?? I have heard MtF transexuals and transgendered people talk about "feeling feminine". I am a woman and have absolutely no idea about what this "feminine" feeling they are referring to is. To be honest, I don't even believe in it. I don't think there is such a thing (asides from preconditioned roles) as "masculinity" or "feminity". I was shocked to read of one person, born with a penis, who decided to make the transition to female for reasons like enjoying shopping, and disliking football etc.

    Anyways, this brings me nicely on to my next question....aren't transexuals and transgender people further reinforcing these stereotypes?? If they believe that to "be a woman" you have to enjoy shopping, want to have children, be sensitive, like wearing skirts....and that to be a man you can never show your feelings, love drinking down the pub, playing football...or that to be any sex, you have to fill a certain criteria. When the way I see it is that we're all individuals, we're all different and that whatever genitals we have is/should be irrelevant.
     

  2. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    Wow, I've never thought of that. That's a pretty spiffy way of looking at it....
     
  3. Valsira

    ValsiraExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Dec 14, 2009
     
    I've actually had very similar thoughts to this. So, yeah, I don't really get it either.
     
  4. ILuvEire

    ILuvEireExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Apr 5, 2010
     
    When discussing this kind of stuff, you have to make a distinction between gender and sex. Sex is what you have in your pants, gender is, essentially, everything else that goes with it (not saying that you don't know the difference, but I just wanted to make sure everyone else did as well.) Transgenderism is then, when the two don't match. It's something that's very interesting, and also a very tough life for someone to live. Transgendered people typically describe a feeling that their sex is wrong. It's very common for male to female transsexuals to describe thoughts about destroying their penis or actually practicing genital mutilation. I think that the world tends to see it as their gender being wrong but, in their eyes, they're gender is correct, it's just that the body they were born with doesn't fit into it.

    That being said, I definitely agree with you. But I'll also say that the transgender condition doesn't stem from these gender stereotypes. Throughout cultures the world over, we find people who just feel that their sex doesn't match their gender. Even without gender stereotypes, I think there would still be people who didn't like their genitalia, and felt that it was wrong for whatever reason.
     
  5. nodz

    nodzExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 4, 2010
     
    There was a documentary on cable TV the other day. It was quite a controversial program. There was an eight year old boy that was not happy as a boy. He believed that he associated better as a girl. He had long hair, long nails with nail polish and make-up including lipstick and eye-liner and eye-shadow. He wore dresses around the house and at family gatherings. The parents understood how he felt but came underfire from others asking how could you let your son dress as a girl etc. The child seemed genuinely happy, however, the main argument against it was that most children at this age appear to 'grow out' of this stage. When the child was interviewed he didn't seemed confused at all that he felt like a girl rather than a boy.
     
  6. statuliber

    statuliberExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 13, 2009
     
    I know a transgender person and she is not behaving like a stereotyped woman just because she doesn't feel male. The Gender of woman is more than shopping and not liking football.
    I think that some transgenders just do this things because they are stereotypically (is that a word?) connected with something typer they feel inside them. So yes to some extend they reenforce it, but I guess as the picture of feminity changes this behaviour changes to.
     
  7. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    You are quoting one rare example of reasons for changing genre. Most of the transexuals become a female just because they want to, because they always felt like they wanted to be a female. You can't base your jugement on one example out of 1000, or now THAT would really be stereotyping.

    But seriously, that's like homosexuality, it's a personnal choice. It's not our business what someone is doing in his livingroom and what he/she have in her pants.
     
  8. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    *shrugs* if that IS your best argument for changing gender you're a proverbial dickhead, period.
    No pun intended btw.
    As for the rest as others have said before me, not my prob as long as you don't bother me with it ;)
    And as far as reenforcing stereotypes goes... hell I'm a stereotypical male myself, I like violence (of the: fire good, boom bad level even), I'm loud, I have 3 emotions in public (frustration, hate and anger) and drink in the pub 'till closing time or I'm too fucking drunk to even remember where the fuck I am. So hell I might be reenforcing the male stereotype more than some transgenders.
     
  9. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    I already said that I have ZERO problem whatsoever with transsexuals, but some people here don’t seem to get that. People should ALWAYS be entitled to do what they want with their own bodies. I 100% respect that. I am just merely asking a question, possibly because I don’t understand it entirely and ONLY because I want to learn, so stop with the insults.

    My best argument for changing gender? What are you talking about??

    No you’re not re-enforcing stereotypes, I’d like to think you weren’t acting that way BECAUSE you have a penis. Whereas SOME transgender people/transsexual people believe you HAVE to act that way if you have a penis. That is my only point.
    Firstly, I’m quoting a rare example??? Okay, I never said I wasn't, but "1 in 1000"... Says who?? I’m not for a second suggesting nor did I suggest that ALL transsexual people feel that way, but to say it’s “1 in 1000”, you would have to actually show me proof. I do think it’s a personal choice, I think if somebody wants to have a vagina or penis, they can use whatever reason they want and it’s not my business and they are entitled to do so. I am well aware of that.

    Finally, an intelligent answer. Thank you for not automatically jumping to conclusions and actually reading what I said. Thank you for making me aware of the difference in transgender and transsexual, it’s actually something I’ve always found a little difficult to understand.
    I think you meant that the "transsexual" condition doesn't stem for the gender stereotypes, which makes sense because I just read that transsexualism exists in animals, I’m not sure how scientists are aware of that, but apparently it is the case.
    Now just to repeat myself again, TRANSEXUALS CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH THEIR BODY AND IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS , I am just asking a question based entirely on an example I read about and I am not for a second suggesting that the majority of transsexuals feel the same.
     
  10. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    Thank you for your great answer also! :) I have a question, something I genuinely DO NOT KNOW, I'm not arguing with what you saidl. But what the hell is the "gender of woman". Seriously?! I am a woman and I haven't a clue!!!
     
  11. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    Not YOUR argument, but the transgenders argument (changing gender to LIKE shopping and HATE football), I'm not too articulate at the moment... lol
    Anyway, no harm meant, no offence taken I hope.
     
  12. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. You meant if what I listed above was a transgendered person's argument for being transgender. My mistake, no offence taken! :)
    I want to reiterate though, that that was ONE example I read about, I seriously doubt it's the trend or the norm for transsexual people to have surgery based on the reasons I listed. I am however, only talking about THOSE transsexuals who decide to change for the reasons I mentioned originally.
     
  13. statuliber

    statuliberExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 13, 2009
     
    well since I am more or less male (at least sex and I'm not really woman as a gender) it would be more or less sexist of me to describe what makes you to a gender woman. OR maybe you are not even woman as a gender, it is hard to tell and there are no real borders where one thing ends and the other starts.
     
  14. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    No it wouldn't be sexist, I was asking you! Okay, well because you are a man, it might be easier for you to tell me what it means to be a man as a gender??
    I think the "no real borders" thing is what I'm getting at. What I am trying to say and get across is that there should be no borders when it comes to gender, anything and everything should be "masculine" and "feminine". Things like sensitivity, liking to wear skirts, loving to play football etc. etc. shouldn't be categorised to one gender anymore than another.
     
  15. statuliber

    statuliberExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 13, 2009
     
    I didnt say I'm male as gender, just as sex ;)

    maybe gender is really the stereotype... I dont know...
     
  16. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    Yeah, i find it a confusing issue to get any political clarity on.
    Following Foucault and Butler, gender and sexuality are socially constructed, as is the binary masculine/feminine split (which acts to reinforce patriarchal heterosexist social relations). Thus, from the perspective of undermining current (oppressive) social relations, where does transsexualism fit into this scenario? Certainly it proves that yr genitals does not determine gender, but what genders does it reinforce? I have no fucking clue, nor (as a straight man) do i think i have the answers to these questions.

    Regardless, trans ppl get completely fucked on in my society, so they deserve all the support they can get.
     
  17. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    Really good reply Butcher, It is a very confusing topic isn't it?! (Well i certainly find it to be so)

    I am with you there mate!
     
  18. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 19, 2009
     
    Well... transgendered people get completely fucked in my society too... but so do a lot of other minorities just the same...

    And id like to add that i had a transgendered (still do technically) friend thats a complete douchebag. And since its a she to he, he fills out the role of a man pretty damn well! ;)
     
  19. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    Of cause transsexualism and transgenderism aren't easy things to define always and i am no expert on the subject but i would say it's about how you feel. The transpersons i've met have not felt comfortable with the sex they were born with and it hadn't had anything to do with liking sports or shopping, it has had to do with not wanting to get undressed even to take a shower and to have to see how your body doesn't at all look like it feels it should.
    If someone born in an male body doesn't feel like he is male, that doesn't mean he has to wear dresses and high heels but he can just as well as women born in female bodies wear jeans and a t-shirt. For some women in male bodies it can be important to wear stereotypical womens clothes just as it can be for some women in female bodies. That has more to do with personality then it has to do with gender or sex.

    When it comes to what the gender of woman is, that isn't easy either but i think the easiest way i can form it is that you as a woman feel like your female body fits you so to speak. If it would be about stereotypes i would be transgender as well but i can not even imagine having a male body. I mean, i do some stereotypically girly things sometimes but i also do stereotypically guyish things some times. A very obvious example that comes to mind is that i have gold and purple curtains in a shiny fabric but i've put them up using duct tape...
    Don't know if this helped to clarify anything at all^^
     
  20. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    Thanks for that answer Anom. :) It was very insightful and definitely cleared up some things, like at the end of the day it's down to the individual.
    I can't imagine what it would feel like to not feel like my body fitted me. That must be tough. Anyways regarding gender, I'm still a little confused, what exactly do transgender people say they feel like? I'm really sorry if I sound ignorant or anything like that, I genuinely don't mean to, I just know very little about this subject.