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SxE, Vegetarianism, Veganism

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Outlaw_(A)_Punk, Oct 1, 2009.

  1. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Explain to me how ANYTHING is unnatural. Because we don't hunt with sticks and rocks or with our bear hands (lol) like the animals do? We are the product of evolution. The whole purpose of nature is to create a being greater than the last one. Slaughterhouses and farming animals as unnatural as it may seem is perfectly natural in the sense that this is how our species acquires it's prey. Different animals do lots of different things to get their prey, a lot of which are a lot more painful to their prey than being put in a slaughterhouse. It's impossible for us to be UNNATURAL actually.

    I'm not trying to justify anything to myself or anyone, I am simply poking holes in your logic and if I may to be so bold as to say I think I'm winning ;)
     
  2. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    *SIGH* DON'T YOU READ??

    How are you so sure they don't feel pain? You ever talk to a plant? Maybe you don't fully understand what it means to be a living thing. You're trying to alienate a living thing from yourself so you can justify consuming it. That is the same logic used by people who justify treating animals like shit, they fail to realize that as a living thing animals felt pain just us we do.

    I'm not criticizing anyone, I am simply stating a valid argument and if you actually READ my post you would find there weren't any defamatory remarks towards anyone of the vegetarian persuasion. The fact that you took my argument as insulting must mean that I'm doing something right and I am making some kind of sense because it GOT to you \m/
     
  3. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Is that what you set out to do? 'Cause I have to tell you you aren't winning anything, you brought up a valid question is all, by the same token you can't prove that plants do feel pain as they have no nervous system, but I personally don't think it can be proven one way or the other. Stop stereotyping every vegan/vegetarian into one mold though, as that is pretty absurd. I have been vegetarian for a year and feel good about it, but it wasn't for any reason that PETA or ALF or any other entity convinced me of, I was just disgusted with a plate of Hawaiian Bar-B-Q one day and that was it. As a matter of fact almost all my brothers and sisters grew up either vegan or vegetarian and could never convince me for 42 years to do the same until I decided I wanted to try it for my own reasons.
     
  4. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    No I just wanted to get into an arbitrary argument with what I would imagine makes up a considerable if not majority demographic of the forum. In all seriousness I really did just want to stimulate debate. Discussion is rarely interesting when everyone is in agreement and I don't see how providing a civil alternative perspective is counterproductive with open minded individuals.

    That's a really good point I hadn't considered.

    Where did I use the words "ALL VEGANS"? I'm pretty sure I didn't and any interpretation of my post being a sweeping generalization is on your part.

    I don't expect to prove or convince anyone, and it would be incredibly naive to think someone is going to abandon a conviction just like that. The point I'm trying to make is that the basis for being vegan on the premises of being more humane is (in theory) inherently flawed. Some vegans have a habit of looking down on us carnivores as less humane/morally inferior, and all I'm saying is the moral dichotomy between vegan and carnivore isn't much different from something totally mundane.
     
  5. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Whether or not plants feel pain (which I have always believed they do, I've heard that somewhere) factory farming for the mass consumption of animal product kills more plants than a vegan diet. It takes much more plant food to feed the purposely over populated livestock than it would to use the same crops to feed humans on an all plant diet. They make mass crops in order to feed mass livestock which in turns wastes food. According to info compiled by the US Dept. or agriculture, over 90 percent of all the grain produced in America is used to feed livestock, animals that wind up on the dinner table. The USDA Economic research service shows that we get back one pound of beef for every 16 pounds of grain.

    So as far as plant life. Vegans save more. Plant life, animal life, the earth.

    The "Circle of life" does not happen in a slaughter house. The circle of life is killing as necessary for survival, not over consumption, and seeing as people can and do survive on vegan diets shows that it this mass slaughter is not necessary. I have no problem with eating animals for survival when faced with iminant starvation, but eating them just for kicks and because it tastes good when there are other options, to me is completely unjustifiable. You're ending countless plant, animal, and human lives (factory farms taking over small farmers etc.), let alone destroying the earth.
     
  6. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    VVV

    Bam. Seems to me as if you're asking ALL vegans, otherwise, you would've been more specific.
     
  7. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    :@

    Some people have medical conditions that force them to eat meat and there is a study somewhere that says there's a point in a toddler's life where consumption of meat is critical for development. Veganism/vegetarianism is a harder diet to maintain and balance and while it's cheaper to produce the grains I think the overall cost to maintain health without eating meat is more expensive, but that's just me making shit up and if anyone has seen a study done otherwise I'd like to see it. It would be cheaper for a vegetarian alternative in a carnivorous society than the other way around.

    SAYS YOU. Once again, people not reading my post.

    What is unnatural is totally subjective and whether you want to believe it or not as an animal we can't be unnatural. We didn't invent waste you know. I'm not saying the system is perfect we have an ENORMOUS problem with waste and needless overproduction that needs to change IMMEDIATELY but this a cultural thing as not every country acts like the US. Overconsumption is not as much a problem in more civilized parts of the world. I am not defending the system I am defending the act of eating meat.

    Are you fucking serious? You actually want me to say "SOME VEGANS IF APPLICABLE"? Context bro, if you're not the type of person I'm talking about then it obviously doesn't apply to you. It seems like you're intentionally trying to find something I've said so you can brush it off. If I'm lying, prove me wrong, but don't try to prove me wrong because it's different from what you believe in.
     
  8. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Well, you made the statement that you we not asking ALL vegans, so forgive me for my misunderstanding, and explain what you meant if you'd like.

    I'm not trying to prove you wrong because you're lying, but yes, I am trying to prove you wrong because what I believe is different. Isn't that the point of discussion/ debate?

    I'm pretty sure I did make a point as to how a vegan lifestyle actually saves more plant life, which was your question. Obviously one must directly or indirectly kill something in order to survive, because we can't eat dirt or rocks, but if you can survive with as little suffering as possible, why not? To me this ties hand in hand with anarchism.
    If you're anti-capitalist, you try your best to refrain from capitalism. Why does it confuse people, especially anarchists, that vegans believe all life is equal, therefor refrain from using animal products?
    Sure, people eating meat is natural, but the ways in which we do so are horrendous and unnecessary, therefor I opt out.
    One must work in order to help themselves and others survive, but we can all agree that capitalism, and consumerism is horrendous and unnecessary.


    Contrary to popular belief, it seems more carnivores, (more correctly omnivores) get on vegetarians, vegans cases more so than vice versa.

    I don't condemn people for eating meat, but I wish that people better understood, or attempted to understand why people make the choice to be veg, and the suffering that occurs rather than try to justify their meat eating in self-righteous rudimentary ways.
     
  9. ou818

    ou818 Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Cattle methane caused by over-breeding of factory farmed Meat is the second leading cause of global warming, behind Co2 emissions. Factory farming is a majorly western thing.
     
  10. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    only because most people are carnivores and most people are stupid. An intelligent person would hold vegetarians/vegans in high respect for choosing a more difficult option out of solidarity for animals. I think the stigma that vegans are are snobs comes from the fact some vegans are only in it to feel morally superior, and since there aren't many vegans by contrast it makes those snobs stand out more.

    I worded that poorly my mistake. It was my opinion that it seemed you were trying to prove me wrong purely for the sake of proving me wrong instead of factual error.

    there's that subjectivity again man. Some animals poison/dismember their prey in horrible gruesome ways. Are those animals WRONG? ALL destruction of life is horrendous (at least to us, the other animals don't give a shit)

    If I was being self-righteous I apologize. Where was I being self-righteous?

    Two things:
    1. Global Warming is a natural occurrence and it was going to happen with or without us, all we did was accelerate the process by a lot.

    2. That is the exact same point I was making.
     
  11. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    They don't have a systematic murder machine which over populates the animals and then subjects them to a life time of suffering, and abuse just to kill utilize them for something that's more about enjoyment, rather than necessary survival.

    I really just said this in general, not specifically towards you. But in a way you're being self righteous trying to defend factory farming. I understand defending eating animals, but most people can agree factory farms are fucked up, and it's self righteous because you are defending something so evil, because you use it and to me it seems like you don't want to have the guilt and blame on your shoulders. Excuse me for trying to assume how you feel, but it is just my assumption.
    Eating meat for survival, no problem, defending factory farming, a little outrageous.

    Not quite. There's a hole in the O-zone layer the size of the US. It lets heat in, and traps it. That wasn't there before. Though I agree with you a bit that the earth has cycles, and you have to add in the variable of human beings, but I don't think the earth's natural cycle would lead it to a catastrophic level. It would eventually fluxuate back to a sustainable level. Global warming is man-made, and for the most part irreversible.
     
  12. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Other than the few quotes at the top I think you were being fairly analytical in your arguments and I appreciated it...
     
  13. ou818

    ou818 Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Death is a natural occurrence and it is going to happen with or without us, all humans do is accelerate the process by a lot.
    Flatulence is a natural occurrence and it is going to happen with or without us, all eating beans does is accelerate the process by a lot.


    I mean seriously, that's your justification? Even if that were correct, which it isn't, considering the scientific consensus that Global Warming/Climate Change/Greenhouse gases are mostly caused by human activity, that's not an excuse. You don't rapidly increase the rate of something because it was going to happen anyway. Some day the Human race will cease to exist. Some day all life will cease to exist. If we're going to take a silly retort like that, then we may as well kill everything in site.

    Well no. You were saying 'Overconsumption is not as much a problem in more civilized parts of the world.' Which it quite obviously is. In fact, Overconsumption of ANYTHING is almost solely a western problem. I say western because I assume that is what you mean when you say civilised.

    The larger point you seem to be making also is that Eating Meat is not much different from being a vegan. Which it is. Not only are you forwarding the emissions by the factory farmed animals, there's also the food that the animal itself eats, the transportation of the animal, and the animal food.
     
  14. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    oh my fucking god it's like talking to a brick wall. Whatever, demonize people who disagree with you. I'm done. I'm a nazi, sexist, hate the environment, hate freedom, and I feast on baby bunny flesh, but not before torturing them for years.
    I meant that as a jab at the US, implying that we are not a civilized part of the world. But why bother reading my posts? you saw something you disagreed with began typing away with fervor.
     
  15. ou818

    ou818 Experienced Member Experienced member


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    I'm not demonising you at all, buddy. I was pointing out the glaring errors in your point. I don't really care too much for your moral standing when you think Veganism is equal to factory farmed meat in terms of waste. I never said I am against eating Meat. Besides which, you're the one falling on the Existential nonsense. People who typify as Anarchist tend not to be big fans of existentialism in my experience. Maybe there's a nice nihilist forum you could go to?

    If you want to justify meat eating on a personal level, then fine. But if you're trying to justify it on a Mathematical level, then the numbers just don't add up, i'm afraid =(
     
  16. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    The half-headedness going on here is forcing my to put aside my ire and respond...

    sub·jec·tive
    [suhb-jek-tiv]
    –adjective

    2.pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.

    I don't mean to question your intelligence, but you're REALLY not getting me when I say SUBJECTIVITY. A koala does not paralyze it's prey and lay it's eggs inside it's prey's fucking skull. SO WHAT?!?! SAYS YOU

    I AM NOT DEFENDING FACTORY FARMING IF YOU READ ANYTHING I WROTE YOU WOULD FIND THAT I AM DEFENDING THE CONSUMPTION OF MEAT AND I DISAGREE WITH HOW THE SYSTEM RUNS WHICH IS WHY I AM HERE. I COULD ALSO SAY THAT IT SEEMS TO ME YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL MORALLY SUPERIOR BUT I WON'T BECAUSE I AM FUCKING GENTLEMAN

    APPARENTLY YOU HAVE NOT FUCKING HEARD OF THE ICEAGE. OBVIOUSLY THE HOLE IN THE OZONE LAYER WAS NOT THERE BEFORE BECAUSE GLOBAL WARMING WASN'T ACCELERATED UNTIL WE WERE HERE, BUT IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER BECAUSE SUCH IS THE CYCLE OF LIFE THAT AT ONE POINT EVERYTHING MUST DIE TO BEGIN ANEW AND IT'S FUCKING BEAUTIFUL BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING NATURAL

    YOU ARE MISTAKEN MY HALF-HEADED FRIEND. THE ACCELERATION OF THE PROCESS OF METHANE TEARING HOLES IN THE OZONE LAYER CHANGING THE CLIMATE IS WHAT IS KNOWN AS GLOBAL WARMING. WITHOUT HUMAN INTERVENTION, IT IS KNOWN SIMPLY AS CLIMATE CHANGE, AND IT INVOLVES MANY FACTORS. YES, IT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE THAT WE INTENTIONALLY CREATED GLOBAL WARMING. YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT HUMAN LIFE CEASING TO EXIST, BUT MISTAKEN THAT ALL LIFE WILL CEASE TO EXIST. LIFE WILL ALWAYS EXIST, AND OUR PRESENCE ON THE PLANET IS VIRTUALLY UNNOTICEABLE IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS BECAUSE ALL WE ARE DOING IS CREATING OUR OWN DESTRUCTION. YES WE ARE DESTROYING THE CURRENT FORM OF LIFE ON OUR PLANET AS WELL BUT LIKE I SAID SUCH IS THE CYCLE OF LIFE THAT THE LIFEFORMS OF THE CURRENT STATE OF THE PLANET WILL DIE.

    ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE MISTAKEN. THERE IS AN OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EATING MEAT AND NOT EATING MEAT. I AM ARGUING THERE IS NO JUSTIFIABLE DIFFERENCE IN MORALITY BETWEEN EATING MEAT AND NOT EATING MEAT.


    THIS WAS SO STUPID I AM NOT EVEN GOING TO DIGNIFY IT WITH A RESPONSE


    I AM PRO-ENVIRONMENTALISM, PRO-ANIMAL RIGHTS, PRO EVERYTHING THAT IS FUCKING GOOD AND PURE IN THE WORLD. SHOCKING STUFF I KNOW BECAUSE I EAT MEAT

    Sorry for typing so loud, but apparently I HAVE to because people are reading what they want to read instead of what I fucking wrote :@ :@
     
  17. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    u mad?
     
  18. ou818

    ou818 Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Well, 'morality' is a subjective issue, and considering most left wing Anarchists tend to find killing animals to be immoral, you're not going to be fighting a winning argument. Besides, we've argued on various levels how eating meat is more immoral than not eating meat, yet you've ignored the points and called/insinuated that we are stupid for making points.

    If it was stupid, you should point out how, not ignore it, and point out that you're ignoring it. That would make it look like you're dodging my point :)

    Well that's not true, considering you think Global Warming is totally natural, and you support factory farming. The evidence doesn't add up here, pal.

    Lmfao.
     
  19. sludgefuck

    sludgefuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    partially mad (more like frustrated that people who are supposed to be intellectuals are cannot read something in front of them because their personal convictions force them to demonize an alternative argument) partially trying to get people to read what I wrote by making it flashy. The children like things that stand out
     
  20. ou818

    ou818 Experienced Member Experienced member


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    For the third time, I never said that I think eating meat is morally worse than not doing so. So much for me being the one unable to read, eh?

    If we're going to resort to petty insults, then you have bad grammar.

    Oh, and I missed this, because your self appointed intellect and arrogant demeanour caused me to skip most of what you wrote, but:

    I suppose you haven't heard the leading theories to the ultimate fate of the universe. Like the Godfather 3, it doesn't end well.

    And we're back to half arsed existentialism.
     
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