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some critics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by bikepunk, Sep 22, 2009.

  1. bikepunk

    bikepunkMember Forum Member




    Sep 22, 2009

    and thanks a lot for this quite usefull website.

    I'm new here but already I got a couple of "problems"

    1/ first of all, my first, and current login is displayed 800*600... and ANARCHO-PUNK.NET is definitely not optimised for such resolution. :o
    Is actually quite fucked.
    As anarcho punk we should taker in consideration people who cannot afford a new wide screen and have to use some skipped stuff in a squat. Even more when you claim to be international, I agree that in western Europe and North America most of the internet user got at least 1024×768 but I bet is not the same everywhere...

    2/ about the way the website works, I kinda do not like mediafire, in my mind it's not such an "anarcho-punk" tool. :S

    while nowadays, a lot of anarcho bands just give their music for free directly from their website why using any other link ?
    some Downloads already use such links instead of mediafire, but when you check the "How to upload music on Anarcho-Punk.net ? "
    this way to share music, wich is the most "natural" and respctfull for the bands is not even mentioned.
    I do not know cheap alternative to mediafire, I cannot ban it then.

    3/ the Paypal link disturb me quite a lot. I know and understand that donations are the only way to pay for hosting the website, but since you host only a forum, such cost should be quite ridiculous and then may be a link to an other bloddy neo capitalist tool (Paypal) on every fuckin page is not needed. :ecouteurs:

    4/ about the page layout, and belive me on a 800*600 displaying is quite bad, I feel that a lot of informations displayed are not needed, at least not on each page.

    To my mind, to "optimise" the readability we should remove the left column (I do not need the 'Last Replys' since I can get notified when I get replies and the 'New Downloads' and 'New Topics' could be rather a clickable link, wich take quite less place on the screen

    sinced I'm logged in and I've choosen my language, the language tool on the top page is definitley useless

    the logo ANARCHO-PUNK.NET with my 800*600 is quite uge and I have to scroll back each page quite a lot to access informations. when I'm browsing the website, I know where I am and I want an access to the content and not only to the title of the website...

    5/ The announcements on each pages of the forum, while browsing, force me to scroll back even more while I already read the two pages liked (there are one of the first pages I HAD to read :/

    6/ Took me a while to understand the difference between 'ANARCHO-PUNK Downloads' and 'INTERNATIONAL Anarcho Downloads'
    is it this segregation between English speakers and the rest of the world useful ? making sense ?
    Is it not promoting the English imperialism ? :/
    why spanish and portuguese are toguether while french and italian are not ?
    where do I put the bands singing in 10 different languages ?
    finaly only one question : Why do we need those senseless labels while we claim to be against nations and borders ?????????

    7/ Last, wich is not directly a critic, but rather an interogation.
    why using a "forum" system to repertory the downloads instead of a "wiki" system ?
    Is it not the wiki principle 100percent compatible with the anarchist anti authoritarian ideas ?
    I was actually about to start a DIYPUNK wiki when I got here.
    there is the page wich gave me some ideas and start to show me the need for such a tool : http://wiki.couchsurfing.org/en/Guide_to_punk

    I think that a lot of infos are already somewhere on the web somehow, and what is more needed is a page to find the last. there are pages with the list of all the DIY punk concerts in france or In turkey, the point is to find the turkish one while I'm french or the other way around ;)
    then a wiki is perfect,
    I think the "gig" section is worthless for a worldwide community, even with continental subgroups. even with national subgroups.
    here the list of the french DIYpunk concerts to understand what I mean :
    http://www.punk-hardcore.info/spip.php? ... ode=calcul

    I think that's it for now

    thanks a lot for consideration

    I'm waiting for you replies and I'll let you know about my wiki project :ecouteurs:

  2. ghost in the void

    ghost in the voidExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member




    Aug 8, 2009
    fair points, i suppose.

    i have a small computer, and i have no problems viewing the site. as for paypal and general "non-anarchoness", this is the internet. the whole think is ex-military. they're all just means to an end. deal with it, or be really alternative and go live in a log cabin and grow your own everything. most punks are smart enough to discern what they will and wont use (i hope), and we're just here for people who will use this medium.

    as for wiki vs forum, i dunno, i like forums myself. maybe admin just likes the format better. i do.

    the international stuff is there for people who cant read english i guess. i dunno, english is my only language (actually, i only speak several dialects of what we call 'strain), i can't really comment on whatever your issue is. if you don't like the site, make your own or whatever.

    actually, i do have a criticism myself. half of the "non punk anarcho music" IS punk music. it's really confusing.
  3. mAquis

    mAquisExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member




    Aug 15, 2009
    You are a global moderator You can classify. ;)

    I agree

    I think that it would be necessary to make 2 forums

    there is another solution?
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member




    Aug 21, 2009
    Male, 35 years old
    Canada Canada
    1/ first of all, my first, and current login is displayed 800*600... and ANARCHO-PUNK.NET is definitely not optimised for such resolution. :O
    Is actually quite fucked.
    As anarcho punk we should taker in consideration people who cannot afford a new wide screen and have to use some skipped stuff in a squat. Even more when you claim to be international, I agree that in western Europe and North America most of the internet user got at least 1024×768 but I bet is not the same everywhere...
    Yes you're right, the site is optimized for at least 1024x768.

    But as far as i know, it will still work under 800x600. I just tryed and the only thing that is fucked up is the menu and the top header... the rest is fine.

    Plus, most of the old screen monitor support 800x600. I have an old TTX screen i was using with a 4.86 like 15 years ago and it does support 1024x768

    Mediafire is free and it's the best tool to download music, with the less ads. I defy you to find something better.

    Of course we could spend hundreds of dollars to get a professional account and post direct downloads, but oh well, would it really be more anarcho ?

    SOME bands do post their albums on their website, using the hosting their bands are paying. But this is a very rare circumstance.... And even when this happens, i still think it is better to post a second download location. Decentralization is always better, and making mirrors for the file is the greatest way of preventing them from disseapearing from the surface of the internet...

    You do not know cheap alternative to mediafire because there isn't such thing.

    This is the funniest part lol...

    All sites and organisations are using similar auto-funding tools to pay the server cost.

    Obviously you know nothing about web hosting and bandwidth, this site isn't a shitty forum, we are using a lot of scripts and getting a shitload of traffic which raises the server load. The proof: our server can't even support executing php and working in a database at the same time. We had to de-centralize the PHP scripts from the database, each one using their own server. This allow us to handle more visitors, but we have to pay an additional server.

    Plus, this website is part of a big anarchist network who owns 5 of the biggest anti-capitalist forums... (and they are almost all more popular than anarcho-punk.net). This is a shitload of money that was invested.

    Paypal is not only the best and most legitimate way to pay our server costs, but this is also the only way we can avoid putting ads on this website.

    Seriously.... this is fucking internet, in a capitalist society... How do you expect us to fund ourselves?

    A lot of peoples are using this menu, and it helps the new posts to get more visibility. I'll think about adding an option to disable it, but i'm not sure how hard it would be

    Yep but a lot of peoples register taking english language and do not realize they can change to a different language

    the header's height is only 173 pixel, this is very small, especially comparing to my other forums.... 800*600 is a very old and outdated resolution, only a very few peoples use it... we can't optimize the site for all resolutions..

    I know it's annoying, but if we had to do this it is unfortunatly because not enough peoples was reading the announcements and we had to always repeat ourselves and answer the same questions over and over.... This is just temporary because we have started the site recently...

    lol a segregation? wtf?

    We just made different categories so bands are sorted better. I find it a lot more easier to find bands from a specific location with this system. So yeah, it is useful.

    And anyway, most peoples already sort their files this way....

    lol, if we were promoting english imperialism this site wouldn't be available in over 20 different language.

    If we made international sections, this is exactly to NOT promote english imperialism. We wanted it to show that english-speaking peoples doesn't have the monopole of anarcho-punk, and the best way to do this is to sort the bands into different categories. Like i said, this can only help us to find what we are looking for more easily...

    Because that 99% of the punk portuguese users come from Brazil, and brazil is half portuguese-speaking and half spanish-speaking. Additionnally, all portuguese speaking peoples are speaking french. Those two languages frequently come together, but i really don,t see any links between french and italian.......

    I'm sure you know hundreds of bands that sing in 10 different languages, and i'm sure there is a lot of those bands ^^

    Start by making the difference between a NATION and a SPEAKING LANGUAGE, then maybe you can come talk to me and pretend i am contradictory.

    But as far as i know, anarchists want to preserve the languages and different culture and not uniformize them.... That's why a lot of anarchists like Oi Polloi are defending their language from disseapearing..

    Why would be a wiki more anarcho than a forum???? I think this is ridiculous.... A forum is in my opinion a lot better to federate the peoples and create a community, plus it is a lot easier to use

    I really don't understand why a wiki would be more anti-authoritarian than a forum.... If you want to modify something, you can just reply to the topic...

    a wiki might be perfect for what YOU want to do, but not for what WE want to do. Our project is different from what you wanted to create.

    I think you are right, the "gigs" section is worthless for an international community, but i had to create a gigs forum anyway because i knew members would still post gigs announcements (in the wrong category)

    As for the concerts list, why a forum wouldn't be able to do the job?

    Just take a look at www.pirate-punk.net (this site is part of Anarcho-Punk.net Network) and you will find the biggest list of french punk/skinhead concerts.... And guess what we are using? A forum..

    On top of all, our forums are getting way more visibility and visitors than sites like Punk-hardcore.info that we never heard of... This proof again that our concept is successful
  5. mAquis

    mAquisExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member




    Aug 15, 2009

    It's not very difficult for a brazilian to understand spanish but Brasil is not half spanish speaking!
    Portuguese speaking people do not speak easily french and french do not speak easily portuguese (and english, italian, spanish, german... :lmao: )
  6. bikepunk

    bikepunkMember Forum Member




    Sep 22, 2009
    Thanks for the replies

    1/about the optimised resolution, may be windows is better at driving graphic cards (how to be seriously anarchist using windows to browse the web ?) but on linux, it happenned to me a few times that with old (very old) graphic cards, like on the computers you get in the streets and put in a free internet access in a squat, you cannot get resolution over 800*600.

    then, I totally agree, the website works, but is definitely not comfortable.
    but I give up I said.

    o_O :'( :ecouteurs:
    check the webpages of the french anarcho scene and you'll realise that you're saying so much bullshit, get into the linux scene and you'll realise that computing is not only meant for buisness...
    I do not know any french anarcho webpage with a direct link on paypal.
    We even do not use myspace : http://dynamite.lautre.net/antimyspace/ ... nglish.pdf

    I love browsing our scene on the web because I feel quite confortable without add and without capitalsim showing everywhere.

    here an interesting example of a website wich need quite a lot of money and still do not have paypal direct link on EACH page : http://www.dogmazic.net

    3/ about the wiki instead of the forum, I give up. I agree that a forum is better to create a community.
    I'll make a wiki anyway, but you're right, my project is different.

    I didn't have any problem with the internationnal section of the forum.
    I like the site, I just express the points I wish we make better. I'm an anarchist. ;)
    MOST of the french anarcho bands using the internet. at least in france in the DIY scene it appears quite obvious to give your music on the internet.
    I totally agree with this argument, just that mediafire is not politically sustainable while anticapitalist.
    once again, I donot know an anarcho equivalent and I don't blame you for using it (but alternatives exist)

    5/ about paypal, see 2/ and :
    I use paypal, and I'm also going to supermarkets from time to time, I do not demand you find an other way to pay the hosting costs
    I just bring my critic, do not tell me that Paypal in OK as an anarchist tool. like is not ok to support any supermarket.

    you can check again dogmazic.net or I would have some other french political websites as excamples as rebellyon.info : it's also possible to make an anarcho punk support tape for donation, to organise a support event or anything.
    I'll think about adding an option to disable it, but i'm not sure how hard it would be
    I know some stuff, but I guess you know better. but instead of leaving me stupid please make a page where you explain that a little bit and tell me how much it cost, I think it would be fair and interesting (increasing the awareness of the users). I would also appreciate to know where is the website hosted.
    recclaim the internet. fuck the society.

    thanks ;)
  7. bikepunk

    bikepunkMember Forum Member




    Sep 22, 2009
    please avoid english shortcuts as "wtf" it took me a few seconds to understand the meaning of this. I'm not used of english internet forums and I guess a few non english natives neither.
    Segregation : To separate or isolate from others or from a main body or group.

    there is a main group : "Anarcho-punk" and then Others as "International"

    I just personally disagree with a language sorting even more when it appears as one Main, and then the rest, subdivised in random senseless groups. (what the fuck is japanese and chinese doing toguether ? do you also think that half of the chinese population is fluent in japanese ???)
    I didn't pretend you did on purpose. I just feel that in our world and our scene as well the english imperialism is a reality. I hope we are able to struggle agaist it. Even if this is the language I used the most for over one year.
    then why English is not among the other languages in the "international" section ? this is what I meant, nothing else. I really appreciate the 20 languages available.
    :o :'(
    Please try to avoid here the domination of the majority on the minorities...
    :lmao: :lmao:
    I never met any portuguese speaking french. Spanish yes, not french. but I never met any spanish native speakin portuguese.
    how can you pretend that those 2 languages come toguether ? may be that's right in canada ?

    I though then the group was made as family languages, while written, I can't deny spanish an portuguese are close, but french and italian as well...

    while making labels on things, is good if these labels make sense.

    or Mon Dragon (I don't know where to downlad the album evidence)
    I agree 100%, but still I don't think we have to put Oi polloi appart in a Gaelic section...

    please understand that I do not consider your work as crap or non-sustainable. I just bring my though, hoping our stuff get better.
    I might appear arrogant, I just think is radicalism.
    I hope my critics do not appear as offences.
  8. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member




    Aug 21, 2009
    Male, 35 years old
    Canada Canada
    Yes you are right, then this could be a problem with linux users who use old graphic cards. Here again this is a very little minority, but i will try to better adapt the website to smaller resolutions when i got a few free time, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

    I'm the webmaster of 3 of the biggest french anarchist/punk forums and we got a paypal donation button on each page. We aren't a shitty website that cost no money to run, even Propagande.org didn't want to host us because our sites are too ressources-consuming.

    How the hell are you expecting us to get money without ads and without paypal donations? What you are suggesting is a suicide...

    :lmao: sorry dude, but this site DOES have a paypal link on each page!

    Plus, they are getting WAY more donations than us.. We barely gets donation, that's why we need visibility for the paypal link or else we would remove it. On our others site we even had to use a temporary banner to ask for donations because no one was clicking the "donate" button in the menu..

    Yep i totally agree with you, but like i said there is no alternative. At least not for the quantity of files we are sharing. There is no company on earth that will host 200GB of files for us with multiple terabytes of free bandwidth and NO ads.... A such deal is worth multiple of hundreds US dollars per months, and no one will give this deal for free to peoples like us... If you find one, then i promise i will stop using mediafire :)

    I agree with you, but i'm pretty sure everyone is aware of this problem... And without having an alternative solution to propose, i don't understand the interest of critizing us...
    "it is better to light a candle than to complaint about the darkness"

    And again, this site is filled with PayPal ads.

    This site is very small and low ressource consuming. It could run on a free webhost...

    We opened anarcho-punk.net not even 1 month ago and this site is already more popular in france than rebellyon.info .... (not even mentionning it is taking more server ressources) just check the stats on Alexa.net

    It's very hard when we are an international community. On another forum, we have been trying for years to organize an event like that, without success..
  9. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member




    Aug 21, 2009
    Male, 35 years old
    Canada Canada
    Oops, just saw you wrote another post while i was writting mine.

    For the language thing, it's pretty simple. Yes, the main language of this site is english. We have to do define a main language or else it would be a mess here, and obviously we have chosen the most widely spoken language as our main language. Best would have been to pick Esperanto, but no one speaks it...

    For the same reason as english is the default language of this forum... Is it imperialism or seggregation also??

    At first we wanted to separate portuguese from spanish, but we noticed most of the portuguese-speaking bands also make songs in spanish and vice-versa. This is really confusing, especially when you speak neither of the two languages. So we just fused the categories together.

    It's the same situation in anarcho punk scene: portuguese and spanish often comes together... Just take a look at the spanish/portuguese anarchist websites... most of them are available in both languages

    Sorry, typing mistake

    I meant "All portuguese speaking peoples are speaking spanish

    Mon Dragon is a shitty band, they have threatened me of lawsuits for sharing their album because of a ridiculous story

    Anyway, this band would go either in french forum because their first language is french... or in the "other languages" category...
    what are you suggesting?? I doubt a category for "bands who speaks 10 languages" would get much interest...

    No, because most of their songs are in english..

    No worries, you are free to express yourself, say what you think, give suggestions, etc...! After all, this is a collective project!

    I respect your opinion and i have nothing against you!
  10. bikepunk

    bikepunkMember Forum Member




    Sep 22, 2009
    thanks dude ;)

    wich ones ?
    I do not appreciate the association with 'shitty' and 'cost no money'
    I guess is not really what you mean, but it appears as such. :/
    most of the stuff I use on the internet are "shitty website that cost no money to run", most of the records I love are "shitty records wich cost no money to record" Anarcho-punk rules :p
    I still do not see any paypal directly written on each dogmazic page, the only page where it appears (at least here in greece) is :
    (it is possible I'm still not very awake, but I've looked for it, seriously)
    I would personnally prefer such a side bar, explaining wich are the cost with a link to an other page to pay (using paypal, ok :( )

    for obvious political security reasons, it's not, the server is somewhere in the US managed by some DIY collective (I cannot remember who).
    I know it costs very less money thank ANARCHO-PUNK.NET

    but as you said you're more frequented, such a huge frequentation of anarchopunks should make easy a worldwide DIY support system ? Or I'm pretending bullshits again ? (I'm quite aware that is easier to say than to do)

    keep talking :ecouteurs:
  11. bikepunk

    bikepunkMember Forum Member




    Sep 22, 2009
    I meant in the download section.
    About English as a main language here, I agree for practical reasons, but I would appreciate an explaination (I can make it if you want so)
    I do :thumbsup:

    about languages, I still disagree, but since I don't reaally give a fuck about this language classsification, I won't insist anymore. spanish and Portuguese might fit the reality in Brasil, but In Europe is different
    what about chinese and japanese ?

    Do you mean a polish band with English only lyrrics should also be posted in the polish section ?
    I didn't know, I'm interested to know more...
  12. ghost in the void

    ghost in the voidExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member




    Aug 8, 2009
    this is priceless.

    how is it bullshit? if this forum isn't on the internet... where is it?!? how do i check out your fantastic "scene" when i've already made it clear i can't read french?

    yeah, i'm aware of linux stuff. but i'm not worried as much about evil scary capitalism like you appear to be, so i'm happy here with our naughty paypal.

    wow, your "scene" sounds great. why did you bother leaving it to post here? you obviously run your electricity on bio-fuel that you grew yourself or solar panels you designed the cells for or wind or water pumps you rigged yourself, because if not the power supply running your machines is from >gasp!< the same capitalist fossil fuel driven stations that drive over half the industrial world.

    or i'm totally wrong. but if i am, i'm glad to be wrong without having such an awful moral dilema that you have to deal with by posting here on our obviously pro-capitalist website.

  13. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member




    Aug 21, 2009
    Male, 35 years old
    Canada Canada
    There is a link asking for donations on ALL pages. When you click on that link, there is a button for paypal donation. It's their main way of raising funds.

    Obviously it does. This site is bigger, gets more traffic, consume a lot more bandwidth, uses more scripts, uses more SQL requests per page, use more server load, and therefore use bigger and more expensive servers.

    Guess not, eh? This is internet. We are an international community. It's difficult to meet and organize things locally when we are an international community.


    Sorry, but right not you are the one who keep blah-blah-ing and you are not suggesting anything serious.

    Like you said above, "it's easier to say than to do" so why don't you start a "worldwide DIY support system" instead of critizing without suggesting anything...

    keep talking...

    The explaination is that this site's first language is english, and it is also the most widely spoken language.

    If you have something different to suggest you could post a suggestion in the "popular assembly" forum, maybe it would interest other peoples and they could say what they think.


  14. bikepunk

    bikepunkMember Forum Member




    Sep 22, 2009
    @ ghost in the void :
    of course is on the net ! Is bullshit in the way that "paypal" and general "non-anarchoness" are not internet, this is capitalism.
    I'll make a wiki to make our fantastic "scene" more accessible.
    It happens, and I try, yes I'm serious.
    it's also possible to steal electricity...
    electricity is not capitalism, buying/selling electricity is.

    what's wrong with pointing and being disturbed by the capitalist stuff in our scene ?
    :/ It was in a positive way, I appreciate confronting ideas.
    exactly, but I personnally prefer their way, a donation is "politicaly correct" paypal is not. they make also obvious the costs with smoe explaination wich I appreciate quite a lot instad of only asking for money.
    please believe me that if I wanna support ANARCHO-PUNK.NET I'll seriously consider a compilation or a support concert.
    tanea-solium is one of my main 'anarcho-musical' inspiration
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member




    Aug 21, 2009
    Male, 35 years old
    Canada Canada
    And the day your wiki will get as popular as this website is, with as much scripts it has.... then you WILL need paypal donations.

    Ehhh, so you really think it would change anything that the paypal donation link would be in another page??

    Even if it is in the menu or in another page, we are still asking for donations, it makes no difference. The only difference it makes is that if we put it on the side menu, peoples WILL actually realize there is a paypal donation link.

    I really don't see what it would change. We will still have a paypal link and that's the so-called problem, not the place where the link is.

    Good luck.

    Everyone who said that never done anything, but if you have hundreds of euros to invest for a support concert and a lot of free time then go for it...
  16. disfuck

    disfuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member




    Sep 11, 2009
    if you dont like this website and think its not very anarcho , and complain about evrything on the page,then dont use it , it isnt rockett science , make that punk wiki you are talking about and then tell us all about how great it is !! or just take the fact that someone made a website for and by anarcho punx to chat about politics and ideals , while you can also download free music by anarcho bands . personally i love the website and appreciate its existance !!! thank you and good nite !!!!
  17. bikepunk

    bikepunkMember Forum Member




    Sep 22, 2009
    @ disfuck : I like the site and think is quite useful thing. as I said in the first lines of the topic. I never pretended that it's not anarcho. I do not complain. I just say what I got problem with...
  18. Solidaridad

    SolidaridadExperienced Member Experienced member




    Oct 5, 2009
    We have a lot of old bands for downloaad here e.g. Crass. It seems to be a document, it´s another time and I am glad if we have the downloads here, even if there will be copyright problems in the near future. This is the history, but know let´s look into the future.

    Because today there are other bands holding up the flag of anarchopunk. And you find a lot of new ideas and event completely music styles e. g. hip hop, a lot of different hardcore styles, crust, oi, ska, and much much more all together with a so called punk attitude.

    But I am really wondering to recognize bands here like the oi-skin bands in the german download section. I am sure they never take the word anarchism in their mouths, so why are we supporting them? I don´t say no to oi but it should be an anarchist oi band, if there is something like this your band is welcome.

    But here it´s different, Pehaps we have an oi-skin hype and a lot of people like it (e.g. in Germany)but isn´t it worth to support real anarchist bands here.

    I think before we upload songs of bands we should risk a look on their webpages, study their links, read their lyrics and than decide to offer a download here. The bands here should be part of anarchopunk scenel. Even if they don´t express always their anarchism in their music they should have to to something with anarchism.

    Would be glad if there are old anarchopunk band like crass and actual activists. Surely y a lot of bands we don´t know yet. That´s the interesting thing, to find new music styles, new ideas to build up anarchy and build up a solidarity network. So please, I hope that we all together think about this aspect, if we upload our songs.

    Never forget that we try to building up an anarchopunk forum- I hope we do.

    If you have a redskin band, perhaps you find a forum elsewhere, if you are an oi-skin against fascism but you have nothing to do with anarchism this should be the wrong forum.
  19. Bananaman

    BananamanExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member




    Aug 9, 2009
    Well, I too have noticed that not all of the bands posted are anarchist, at least not explicitly so... Maybe they could be moved to just punk rock category or some such...
  20. debiant

    debiantMember Forum Member




    Oct 4, 2009
    Why not put English Anarcho Punk as the title of the English Downloads so there is no confusion for the international community?

    I do think putting Japanese and Chinese together is like putting English in with German. Just a little silly.