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Socialist Healthcare

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Arjay691, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    don't be paranoid, if this was voted by the senate it will be applied...

    wow this is totally crazy, you read too much bullshit on the new world order....
     
  2. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    It does sound a little paranoid but don't be surprised when it happens......
     
  3. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    conspirationist theories :p
     
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    According to this official article:

    http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf

    If you can't afford to pay for the health care you can pay with "tax credits"

    So i guess it clears up all the rumors. This is definatly a great progressive plan.

    See the part "Tax credits for families and small businesses"

    The families who can't afford the $2,500 annual cost will be able to pay with taxes

    This is very close of canada's medical system, just in a different way.... It is a great beginning

    Definatly nothing fascist or some bullshit like that...
     
  5. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ungovernable, I couldn't tell in your last post if you were talking about the new U.S. healthcare bill or the Canadian system. We're not getting free healthcare. My understanding of the bill is that there are a few minor improvements on the atrocious health care system and one major drawback: in order to say that we have universal coverage, we are making it illegal to not have insurance.

    This has been the way things work in Massachusetts, where I used to live, for a while now. What it means is that, if you're poor and uninsured, you have to buy shitty, subsidized state health coverage. A lot of my friends are on this and it's basically just another bill they have to pay. Any time they actually want to go to a doctor, they have to fight with the insurance company to get approved and, more often than not, they end up having to pay out of pocket anyway. When my ex broke her hand hitch-hiking, MassHealth wouldn't pay for any of her emergency room fees because they said they're not responsible for injuries that take place out of state. :ecouteurs:

    This bill isn't anything really. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just an attempt on the part of the Democrats to make it look like they did something for working people. Which they didn't. A few vices get loosened, a few get tightened and money changes hands.
     
  6. Shuei

    ShueiExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Well.
    We have free healthcare in my country, and it's better and cheaper than the american system.

    That our government is destroying it is something completely different
     
  7. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Nobody is getting free health care.

    In canada the free healthcare is paid with taxes

    Obama's plan is very similar. According to the link i posted (official source) families who can't afford to PAY for the health care will be able to access a plan to pay with their taxes

    I'm definatly not an Obama partisan, but i will have to take his defense on this. At first he wanted a very good plan but he had to make some arrangements or else it wouldn't pass the congress. Don't forget that the health care system got voted by like 52% of the peoples who voted for it and the other 48% were against, it was very close.... Obama had to revise his plan so everyone could be satisfacted, i.e. at the last moment he decided that abortions fees will not be paid by the state so he could get the votes from the anti-avortion congress members

    Obama and the democrat party aren't the only one to blame, you must blame the whole system, the whole political partys and all members of the congress
     
  8. DrunkSquid

    DrunkSquidExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    This.

    Also, although I don't agree with imprisoning people for not buying insurance (and while this was probably misenterpreted by you to mean that every citizen needs to have insurance, which it is not.. that would sort of be like that idea the Bush administration had involving national voter ID cards)... i do agree that a shift torwards universal healthcare would be an improvement in the us.

    or perhaps it is on the same level of overstepping peoples boundaries to the federal government even further.
     
  9. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    In UK got national insurance which pays for health system, I think it pays state pensions also. Used to be 9% of income, but no doubt that's changed now. It's just part of tax system, so it aint exactly free, though rich pay more than poor for same service, so it's an improvement on private system. It also covers you for any country in EU.
     
  10. DrunkSquid

    DrunkSquidExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    with a universal healthcare system in the united states, it would present a new set of problems to replace the old ones, only it's just the extremely wealthy who are affected instead of the 95% of citizens, by this new set of problems like "not getting that extra funding for your personal research" or something like that.
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Oh really ?

    Some citizens in america are immune to potential illness and medical problems ?

    Everyone needs a health care insurance. Just like everyone needs a firefighter service in case your house burns down.

    lol the government doesn't need to force you to get insurance to track you down, there is already thousands of other ways.

    Paranoia.

    Everyone in canada have a medical insurance, including myself, and i don't feel like i'm tracked down by the government or something. Anyway we are already everywhere in other databases, you just don't realize it.

    Finally ! Here's someone who understand how the system works !

    Wrong. Read obama's project:

    http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/H ... llPlan.pdf

    It's not the rich who will benefit out of it since they will be forced to PAY for insurance. The poor peoples can have a "tax credits" deal to pay their insurance...
     
  12. rude-boy

    rude-boyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    i never thought this would happen just becuae the reccesion i did not think at the moment with all the bail outs and massive debt was a good time to do a huge overhale of the medicle system. i figured it would fuck around with their economy even more since all the private insurence companys would loose a ton of money which means stocks and dollr value would most likley be butt hurt at least a bit. there still will be a need for private insurance buit the demand is going to drop ten fold

    but hey of it work FUCK YA! if it were not for canadas healthcare i would be dead right now. with out a doubt. i had to get life saving surgery when i was 2 weks old. not gunna get into details but my family is wayyyyy to poor and i would have died.i would have died 3 years ago again from getting e coli madness from dirty salad. but ope they took me and said here come get better. they did not wait as i passed in and out of consiousnes from lack of blood going to my brain(INSANE low blood pressure and extremly faint heat beat)

    it might take a bit longer but yo i am willing to wait 4 hours if need be. and you can alwase leave and go back..so its not even so bad. and plus medicare card is a goverment id so its good for bars and shit to say im 19.

    on the ole i think its a step up from the greedy money fucking private insurance companys making huge amounts of money by denying people medicle care beacuse of a small discrepence on their hmo(correct name???). no more rejecting people health even though they have been paying thir insurrence every moneth but this sickness just happend to only be covered by the platnum gold card insurence and you only have gold. sorry now make room for the next persoin who has been payong 1000 a month he is covered to live not you. have a nice day


    WOO OBAMANOMICS! HEALTHCARE WOOOOO
     
  13. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ungovernable just loves Obama and wants him to kiss and touch him all over :rock:
     
  14. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    And you love extreme right propaganda and reactionary thoughts... Maybe you should join the republican party and vote for McCain ?

    You failed over and over to explain why a "socialist healthcare system" is a step backward, you keep repeating the republican propaganda without even being able to explain your point. Please bring up some arguments.

    I'm definatly not a partisan of Obama, but i am definatly a partisan of a free socialist healthcare system or any progressive actions in this direction. I hate Obama for many reasons but on this point i must admit that this is a big progress. Only a conservative capitalist can pretend the opposite...
     
  15. DrunkSquid

    DrunkSquidExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    oh sorry man i didn't mean any proposed legislation in particular just the shift towards a socialist healthcare system, privileged individuals who would already have been able to afford the highest top notch healthcare anyway, will complain because they think it will lower the standards of hospitals which isn't really true and the benefits of shifting towards a universal healthcare system outweigh the negative aspects compared to what we have now, right?
     
  16. Ring Of Truth

    Ring Of TruthExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I agree with most of your post... but this part is a little incorrect. Matter of fact the insurance companies just saw increased profits on wallstreet this morning, and it looks like their business is likely not to be effected. Business' that have a private insurance, or any individual who wishes to purchase a private insurance are free to do so. What this plan really does is it helps those who can't afford insurance, or those who are denied for pre-existing conditions to be able to have insurance. At first I was worried that I would have to pay a butt load of money to have insurance or get a fine... until I saw the details, unless you make like 4 times the poverty level, there is no charge. So for a family of 4 that would be like $80,000. Since I have never made enough money to even have to pay taxes, my family and I would not be affected in any negative way. What it means for us, is that we would get free healthcare. What this means for people that are upper-middle-class and higher is that they will be getting cheaper healthcare for themselves, and helping to insure people like myself who works their ass off and are exploited by the upper class.


    This could in fact boost the economy, because now people can get jobs that they enjoy, rather than being forced to be stuck in jobs they hate just so they can keep insurance, also business who are paying a shitload for insurance for their employees would no longer have to spend so much, which can help some business' to stay in business.

    Really there is no negatives yet to the reformed health care plan. The only negatives are the cold-war era communist/socialist fear.
     
  17. manvsmaritoni

    manvsmaritoniActive Member Forum Member


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    ring of truth: good signature.
    ungovernable: you dont believe there are people who are close to bringing about the new world order? really? i will openly admit that i have some problems with being overly paranoid. i guess it comes from looking to history and seeing all the clear examples of treachery against mankind. with new and improved technology i expect new and improved tactics for creating mass wealth for few and little for the rest of us. i dont see how you could argue this isnt happening. surely you dont think 911 went down the way the US said it did? you will be very governable if certain monsters are allowed to enact their plans of greed and sheer evil. but who knows, maybe i am crazy and you are right. would you care to give me some research leads so that i may understand i am wrong and be able to get some sleep at night? maybe you could give my view some fair research time as well.
     
  18. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    No, definatly not. Look at the "new world order" definition, do you really think all countried of this world are close to making one same government ? They are all fighting each others, we are way more close of another world war than a new world order of unified government.

    The new world order is a shitty conspirationist theory, typically extreme-right thought, along with the illuminatis, 9/11 crazy theories, bullshit by Alex Jones, the Zietgeist crazy sect or any similar BS

    I hope you don't believe in illuminatis or some bullshit like that ?

    Holy shit, please don't tell me you think the US government planted bombs on heir own power.

    There is an awesome documentary (unfortunatly in french) called "le 11 septembre n'a jamais arrivé" that explains very well where all those conspirationist theories around the 9/11 comes from. It ALL comes from extreme-right thinkers without exception, and have been systhematically repeated by other right wing assholes. This is disinformation only meant to make money by selling books.

    Just look at End War or any other shitty documentaries by Alex Jones, he's a fucking fascist look at his ideas on wikipedia. Look at the zietgeist theories and learn about the crazy Zietgeist movement, it's a fucking sect and they believe aliens will come soon to take over the planet. BULLSHIT.

    The only "conspiration" behind the 9/11 is that the US collaborated for years with Ben laden, they sold him weapons and did the same with many other assholes like Saddam Hussein. The only conspiration is that government and capitalism is evil, and making assumptions on stupid conspirationist theories is just a smoke screen to the FACTS that the real problem is the government itself

    Kennedy was killed by the FBI, elvis presley is still alive, world war was created by banks and the illuminatis, the gas chambers didn't exist and the USA didn't walk on the moon !

    Ok now we are getting far away from the main topic....
     
  19. manvsmaritoni

    manvsmaritoniActive Member Forum Member


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    i agree with about half of what you said. alex jones sounds like a vaccum cleaner salesmen desperatly trying to make another sale. some of what he says i absolutely believe but he is saying it for the wrong reason and it wouldnt shock me if he was a paid government employee. he is here to discredit reality by combining it with nonsense. it seems you and i agree on the fact that that sort of thing is happening, just not where we choose to draw the line between the nonsense and the real reality. yeah i liked the zeitgeist movies FOR THE MOST PART. assuming you have seen them, do you claim they have done a poor job explaining how the monetary system works? people have volunteered to have the r.f.i.d. chip implanted in their children and themselves. it is used in parts of the military. it is in all new american passports. this is real. how long before they use it as a weapon to enslave? if it takes 100 years, thats soon to me. so yes i understand the countries around the world are fighting and there will likely be world war before the new world order but there will be a one world government eventually and it will be oppressive unless people stand up and stop it. to say you dont believe in this, to me, is like saying you believe that all CEOs and weapon manufacturers ect. who care more about human life than their next paycheck AND you believe that when government trys to take more of our freedom to further enhance their power and paychecks, the people will actually be well aware of what is going on and prepared to do something about it. do you know how many americans get their information from fox news? that isnt even a real news show. as it is, we are fucked. either people like me are just crazy(i wish) and the world is getting better, or people like you are crazy and we will all be slaves by the end of the century. but here is the bottom line, getting back in part to the health care issue, any system, even if it were progressing forward at a slow rate, is still absolute shit when it produces a majority of people who never take the time out of their day to think about the fact that in the US and other first world countries people have eating contests and often develop poor health conditions due to their over eating while so much of the rest of the world is starving to death. and they think thats ok. because they need their fancy over priced name brand shit or whatever. sure we have to start somewhere. lets start by caring about EVERYONES BASIC NEEDS. anything else is going to be too little too late.
     
  20. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    That's called nanotechnologies. Not new world order...
     
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