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So where does this lead us?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Future Myths, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. Future Myths

    Future MythsMember Forum Member


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    Nov 20, 2009
     
    Obviously, we, amongst a great deal of individuals the world over see problems with the existing structures, and those that have been attempted and failed. Aside from unattainable utopia ideals, and aside from all we see wrong with the world, what would a world at least tolerably different look like? How would it work? Who would be responsible for infrastructure and the providing for of the masses? Would commerce exist? How would it function?
     

  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    What what do you base these assumptions on ?

    First we should define what is a "failture".

    All good things come to an end, and because something has ended doesn't means it failed.

    Take the spanish revolution for example. it didn't end because anarchism wasn't working, it ended because everyone hated them for their success and because the bourgeoiserie couldn't exploit them anymore. When you are being fought by all sides and you end up to lose the war doesn't means anarchism in the society failed.

    And even if anarchism ended in spanish, there is a worldwide heritage of organisations and ideas comming right from the spanish revolution... Just think about all the workers organisations that appeared in all countrys after their success in spanish, and those organisations like the CNT and AIT (worker's international alliance) are still going today

    Or the zapatists... they're still here after 100 years


    The problem is that we need an INTERNATIONAL revolution if we want permanent (and real) anarchism
     
  3. Bananaman

    BananamanExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 9, 2009
     
    I think that current society is on a self destruct course, and it will happen in the next 20 years. New society will have to bee more eco friendly and more aware of real needs and energy consumption. It will probably be a series of small communities forming a larger network, no big cities as today. Such a state of affairs will be a test for anarchism and other ideologies, and will make them or prove them wrong...

    Will this happen? Who knows, we might destroy the planet before there is a chance for something like this...
     
  4. Future Myths

    Future MythsMember Forum Member


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    Nov 20, 2009
     
    You assume I was speaking of the struggles you've mentioned. I was not. I was speaking of the idealistic pursuits of things such as communism and capitalism, for example; I don't believe that trade/commerce or communism necessarily set out to cause the damage they've done in the hands that have held them (though there are the obvious major problems with capitalism).


    I was alluding to the international and global community.
    So my question stands-how can it be done? What of the masses?


    So is anarchism something to be used to restructure, or is it something to use after the current structures have failed, or perhaps both?
     
  5. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I still believe in anarchism as meaning no governments, the people decide how to live their own lives, and secondary I feel the next 3 big things should be no military, (we should all however, be trained to some degree in defenses against oppressors.) no taxes, and no land ownership. I think people need to kind of make their own means, not really on governments, programs, societies etc. I agree with Banaman, smaller societies is a better alternative to the cities we crowd, and eco friendlier is alos a big must.

    As far as how it will work, look like, etc... I have yet to hear a good plan on that. Anarchy can only truely work on a global scale, as one country deciding it wants anarchy could be easily invaded and taken over by others, unless the others want the same thing.
     
  6. Future Myths

    Future MythsMember Forum Member


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    Anxiety- I agree, it would have to be a worldwide endeavor, or as you said, the countries that choose this way of life could simply be overtaken or enslaved to continue other things such as imperialism (which is still alive and well). The things I am wondering about are things like sanitation and medical care. I would think that there would have to be some communal effort to support functions such as these, and again, they would have to be global efforts, I would think. Also, how would trade work?
     
  7. Jack

    JackExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 30, 2009
     
    International Workers' Association you mean.

    Emiliano Zapata (not an Anarchist, though Anarchists did fight with him in large numbers, and against him, but that's another story) was killed around 1920. The modern Zapatistas started their insurrection in 1994.

    bourgeoisie*

    Utopian. Cities can never be destroyed because the infastructure for them already exists and most industry is already there. However, over time, industrial production will be decentralized and there will be less of a difference between city and countryside. However to do this immediately would contradict being eco friendly because the required means to rebuild factories and such outside of cities will tear shit up, and it would mean expansion into forests and wetlands as well.



    OP: This is your bible on building future Anarchism (or at least that's what Ricardo Flores Magon considered it): http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_ar ... t/toc.html

    Real quick read, just over 200 pages and everything is layed out in layman's terms, and it's divided by topic.
     
  8. Future Myths

    Future MythsMember Forum Member


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    Nov 20, 2009
     
    Thanks for the link Jack! :rock:
     
  9. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Yes you're right ^^ Sorry, i only knew the spanish/french names and i tryed to translate

    Yes but like you said, that's another story. I was talking about the whole mexican insurrectionist movement, i shouldn't have limited my example to the zapatists.

    We can't really critize today's EZLN movement. Again it is not a purely anarchist movement, but it is an autonomous "army" built on the principles of anarchism.... Sub-commander marcos said EZLN welcomes both anarchist and communists, the goal is to fight capitalism..

    oops.... french word again :p

    A very good anarchist thinker, good recommendation.
     
  10. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    well, One example for sanitation is I would hope items would have less packaging for one, since right now it is all about style over substance. In an anarcho society there would be no need to embellish items, I think it would be a big concept of what you see is what you get. While packaging wouldn't account to getting rid of all waste... if u really think about it, it would be a huge reduction if restructured. As far as garbage men and such, I imagine you would have to take your own garbage to the dump, or pay a friend to do it or something, (by pay I mean like trading a service or something, not monetarily). Medical care, is a tough one. Hopefully part of the restructuring of education we would learn actually important things likes treating certain injuries. as far as surgeons, they certainly wouldn't be the high paid arrogant bastards they are now a days. Hopefully an improved respect for life would contribute.

    Well no embargoes, first of all. I imagine again a process of trading items, much more reliance on making things yourself than buying them.

    These are just thoughts, I don't have any concrete answers.
     
  11. BlinkoChrist

    BlinkoChristExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 1, 2009
     
    ZOMG a positive thread!!

    Trade services not money.
     
  12. Rabbit

    RabbitExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    This bothered me. The chronology is all off.

    Zapata fought in the Mexican Revolution in 1910. The comment "still alive" refers likely to their continued existence today.

    As of late 2009, the EZLN exists. That's 99 years, which is close enough for me.
     
  13. Future Myths

    Future MythsMember Forum Member


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    Nov 20, 2009
     
    Blinko, I appreciate the enthusiasm! I just thought I would try and get some discourse going about what is beyond what is so appalling about the world, and look toward the future. I by no means have a greater formulation about it all then anyone else; I just thought I would bring up some vital issues that need to be addressed. Obviously, any restructuring needs to address fundamental issues such as health care, sanitation, and as others have mentioned, not only being logical about it, but also an issue of dire importance--the environment, and how any such un/re/structuring would take it's toll on it.
     
  14. BlinkoChrist

    BlinkoChristExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 1, 2009
     
    Hey, I appreciate the acceptance :)
    I'm honestly not sure how a society would be run, but I do know for sure that unless there is a mutual love among people, nothing will get done, greed will take over, and we will be right back to square one. The biggest thing for me is for people to come together, especially in the westernized world.
     
  15. Jack

    JackExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 30, 2009
     
    The Mexican Revolution ended in 1920. I just didn't want to look up when Zapata was actually killed, it was definitely post 1910.

    Ugh. It's a different group, different people. Noone who fought with the Liberation Army of The South is fighting with the modern EZLN, they're all dead. The modern ones were founded in 1983, and started their uprising in 1994. Different groups, similar ideology, your chronology is off.
     
  16. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    u worry about your cuntry and i'l wory about mine, culture is powerful, therein needs focus but discuss away
     
  17. Future Myths

    Future MythsMember Forum Member


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    Nov 20, 2009
     
    please, don't mistake culture for nationalism.
     
  18. chesticles

    chesticlesActive Member Forum Member


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    Oct 14, 2009
     
    i enjoy the vague idea of tribes without leaders and reuse the barter system to eliminate the want for materialistic motives
     
  19. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    Both different topics in the post, but both seconded. I think the best way to envision a society where societal needs are no longer capitalized is one where the doctors, firemen, etc, have a right to a set amount of resources, same as everyone else and from that you can barter and trade resources and services based upon the ones you want to get. I.e.: healthcare and protection from fire, both as it comes up, I suggest doing most of this haggling afterwards by the way.... lol
     
  20. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    no mistake, i meant focus rather than the whole picture all the time future, all good, and if u can change culture you have a better chance of changing the country for all, at large, as one size does not fiteth all except the general 'rules' etc
     
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