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Sects and extremism/integrism in an anarchist society

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by ungovernable, Jun 1, 2010.

  1. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Ok so it looks like a lot of you are believing in something you call "the freedom of cult" or something like that. In other words everyone would be allowed to believe in whatever the fuck they want, some of you even agree that they should be allowed to organize and build their own cult place (like churches for christians)

    But i'm wondering.... What about sects ?? If we follow what some of you said on this forum, anarchists shouldn't tell others what they can or cannot believe in, they should be allowed to believe in whatever they want and brainwash anybody they want.

    So what about the sects who believe that the apocalypse is comming, or who talk about collective suicides ?? Like the davidians in the USA, or the order of the solar temple in Quebec... We could even list the scientology who force their adepts to break any link with their families and other friends who are not part of the scientology sect. They manipulate everyone and force the government to change laws to accept them, they brainwash their adepts, they force them to take drugs, force them to give them all their money, etc...

    There is also the extremist/integrist islamists who believe in Jihad and who dream about making an islamist revolution to build a strong islamist state that would work based on their religion and impose their views on others.... And also we could list the Jehovah's Witnesses (not sure of the english name) who sounds peacefully but they brainwash peoples with their stupid lies, they force them to give their money, and they have stupid beliefs like they totally refuse a blood transfusion even if it is a question of death or life. So it means that if a kid whose parents are member of this religion, his parents will let him die if he need a blood transfusion because it's against their religion so they can't accept it (it already happenned many times)

    So how would you guys deal with those assholes in an anarchist society ? Remember you said that everyone is allowed to have their own cult or religious ideas and that anarchists have no right of telling them they are not right... So what, we are going to wait until they start killing themselves before acting ??

    You said we shouldn't burn churches, so we should also let fanatics like the davidians and the order of the solar temple build their own cult place alone in the wood, and let them brainwash others until they kill themselves ?
    We shouldn't burn religious books, so we should let the scientology keep writting books about how to brainwash peoples step by step, how to drug them with abusive medicines until they totally obey to them ? We should also tolerate radical islamist writtings talking about doing the Jihad against the infidels and fighting to build a worldwide islamist state to control the women and the infidels ?? The books that say the children should give their life for Allah and become suicide bombers ?? (btw i am not making any generalisation, i am talking about radical extremist/integrist islamism and i do understand that it is only a minority percentage in islam religion, but IT DOES EXIST and always will exist)

    Or what are you just going to be an hypocrite and only tolerate the religions that you like and that YOU judge less harmful, like christianism ?? WHO have the authority to tell what is acceptable and what not ??

    Please explain us.
     

  2. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    no organized religions in an anarcho society, since it's all bullshit and based around a leader telling others how to live their lives, but individual beliefs should be acceptable.
     
  3. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I firmly believe that the only limitation on freedom should be that you do not infringe upon another's freedom. If they want to believe that a UFO is following a comet and they need to kill themselves to gain some sort of cosmic bus pass, so be it. So long as they do not try to force anyone along for the ride. If someone wants to pretend that wine is the blood of a man that died 2000 years ago whatever. It's their life and they can do with as they choose, just let me live mine.

    It's easy to throw words like cult and extremist around but that carries a huge risk with it. It makes easy for people to do horrible things to each other. Recent history has shown this very clearly. Look at Abu Gharaib, Gitmo, the recent attacks on aid ships, the Russian attacks on Chechnya, and so on. These are all allowed to happen because of labels like extremist, and terrorist.

    Are you suggesting that you should be able to tell other what they can and cannot believe? Isn't that the very definition of brainwashing?
     
  4. Wooly

    WoolyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ungov, you were talking about Community's and social contracts in another forum recently. If a religious group within a community started trying to brainwash and "Bible bash" members of the community, the community could simply vote to have that group removed from the community. You were saying the same thing about people with guns. I know i was originally against the whole syndicate thing. but this is why we would need syndicates, to protect us from Crazy suicide cults and over zealous religious groups. If a group of Christians (or scientologists, or suicide cultists) were operating peacefully within my community, thats fine with me (Actually maybe not Suicide cults, you have to draw the line somewhere. If your going to commit mass suicide, do it somewhere remote, i dont want to have to clean that shit up). But if they are going around trying to brainwash the population of the community, then action definitely needs to be taken.
     
  5. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    yeah if it bothers you that much, set up an athiest only community. just don't expect it to be huge.
     
  6. Protspecd

    ProtspecdExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Indeed, I personally don't believe in a god or higher being but you should be allowed to on this forum. I hate religion but having your own individual beliefs on a god is okay in my opinion. Religion =/= believing in god/higher being.
     
  7. Kobac

    KobacExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Everyone belives what they want.Christians are cannibals,eating flesh and drinking blood of their master.Islam is gonna be a big threat in future with their fucked up thinking,Jehova s witnesses(very common around my place)brainwashed retards and orgy lovers.
    i hate everything about religion or sects it s all about brainwashing,coming to the meetings,cutting yourself,chanting,falling in trance,who knows what else,but like you said if they re gonna do it to themself i won t stop them
    I like having my opinion,my very own brain and not being forced to do something i don t wanna do
     
  8. Bunny

    BunnyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok, stupid question but i'll ask: why would we have religion in an anarchist society, believing in a higher power is believing in something that has authority over you. So if you are religious, how are you really an anarchist and why would you be in an anarchist society?
    Personally, i would say no churches or other religious meeting places. If you really want to believe in some god or something, believe in it privately and keep it to yourself. Don't spread it to your children, friends, etc. No one says you can't believe whatever bullshit you want, just don't teach it to others and don't act on it.
    Honestly, all religions are outdated fairy-tales that serves no useful function in the world today, and doesn't belong in an anarchist society.
     
  9. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Oh ok, so your point is that we should let them alienate peoples, we should let them brainwash children into thinking we have to kill ourselves.... Woah great !! Thanks for confirming us how fucking stupid you are.

    So in your so-called "anarchist" society, events like Jim Jones's Temple of the People who killed themselves would be totally normal and acceptable. I remind you that 1000 peoples killed themselves and with them there were 300 children.
    By tolerating those peoples and giving them the right to do what they want you are as guilty as them.

    Inciting peoples to kill themselves should be treated like inciting peoples to commit murders without reason


    Off-topic. We're not talking about attacking humanitarian ships or torturing peoples, we are talking about preventing alienation of the peoples and brainwash into thinking suicide is a right thing to do

    Yes, i'm suggesting peoples should not believe into something that can harm other peoples, especially children. And i don't give a fuck about what a pseudo-anarchist like you think of that, especially after seeing your opinions.


    Kicking out a sect wanting to suicide themselves could be protecting the community, but it would be just getting rid of the problem and not solving it : they would just move to another place and keep going on until they finally kill themselves. We wouldn't solve anything. Those peoples need serious mental help...

    Sorry but yes believing in god is part of religion, and it is also definatly against anarchist concepts like many serious philosophers pointed it out. But like i said there's nothing we can do about individual beliefs and anyway we should focus our energy at other place. If we say "fight power not people" i'd also say "fight religion not adepts/believers". The source of the problem not the consequences.



    100% agree !
     
  10. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I am not a religious person. I just believe that to deny someone the right to believe and worship as they choose is to deny thought. Or in other words mind control. Would you be ok with someone shutting this site down because they didn't agree with your ideas? Would you be ok with someone silencing you when it comes to your beliefs? People should have the right to express their ideas because that is what it is to be free.

    How would you react if someone said, "Honestly, anarchism is an outdated fairy-tale that serves no useful function in the world today, and doesn't belong in society. But if you want to believe in that it ok, as long as you do it privately." ?
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    You still don't understand anything.

    It's the same story than neo-nazis and censorship.

    We're not fighting ideas we don't agree with, WE ARE FIGHTING IDEAS THAT CAN HARM OTHER PEOPLES. It's all about the Harm Principle once again.

    If i wanted to mind control and censor everything i don't agree with, ALL religions and ALL cults would be prohibited. Obviously this is not the case.

    Religions is like believing in Santa Clauss but for adults. Unlike religions, at least you understand that Santa Clauss doesn't exist when you grow up.

    By supporting and defending those suicide sects, you are as guilty as the ones telling the children to kill themselves. This bullshit has nothing to do in an anarchist society.

    So you are saying that religious extremists like the jihadists who want to kill all infidels can organize ?
    You are saying that an anarchist society should tolerate organized religion and churches ?
    You are saying that neo-nazis should be able to organize and not only be allowed to believe in it privately ??

    Definatly once again you confirm that you are NOT anarchist.
     
  12. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    The biggest problem I see with your argument is, who gets to decide what is a harmful idea? I think the idea of limiting expression (peaceful) of ideas or beliefs to be harmful to the mind. So do I then have the right to silence you? If I were to believe in god and thought that atheism is harmful would I have the right to silence you?

    The distinction is when the idea crosses over into action. No one ever has the right to harm another other than in self defense or in defense of another. Everyone should have the right to believe whatever they want and to express those beliefs in a peaceful manner. Anything less is not freedom. Personally I believe that freedom is more important than any form of government, including anarchism.
     
  13. Bunny

    BunnyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    First, ghoul have the balls to quote me if you disagree with what I'm saying.
    Deja vu but going along the lines of this train of thought, do you believe that it is harmful to limit neo-nazis of their expression? Its the same thing. Ungov already explains it above.

    Again, people who are religious rarely just believe, they spread their ideas and intend for them to become action. We have christians in government trying to get rid of gay rights and women's reproductive rights. We have jihadist who blow people up. Religion harms the freedoms of others and thats part of the reason why it shouldn't be in an anarchist society (or the world today).
    Why are you here then? I think you and NGNM (NMGN? you know who i mean) should go start a site together, that way you don't have to listen to us terrible "fake anarchist" censor neo-nazis and religion :p
     
  14. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    You are right, sometimes religion is used terrible things. It is also used for some wonderful things as well. I volunteer at a soup kitchen that is faith based. Most of the people that volunteer there are from churches in the area. They travel, sometimes a hundred miles, pool their money and time to feed people they don't know. They do this as an expression of faith. If you were to ban all public expression of faith this would be banned as well.
    Why am I here? Well I found this site while looking for some records I thought I wouldn't find again (which I found!! thank you A-P net for that. \m/ ). It seemed like a good place to discuss ideas. I figured I would find some open minded, non judgmental people to share ideas with. I have no illusions that everyone would agree but that is life, we all won't agree. The best we can do is respect each others opinions offer our own and enjoy life.
     
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    ghoul once again you ignore my arguments and you refuse to answer the question addressed to you. YOu are EXACTLY like NGNM85
    i said:
    So you are saying that religious extremists like the jihadists who want to kill all infidels can organize ?
    You are saying that an anarchist society should tolerate organized religion and churches ?
    You are saying that neo-nazis should be able to organize and not only be allowed to believe in it privately ??


    Hahahahaha ok maybe we have to make a collective vote to determine if collective suicides and brainwashing children into believing they need to kill themselves is harmful or not ??

    Stop being so stupid, everyone understand that this kind of bullshit is harmful to others.

    If freedom is more important than anarchism then you are probably against a revolution, because a revolution is negating the freedom to the bourgeoisie and the ruling class. Remember what you said: it does not matter how little the percentage is, you just can't impose something by violence, even if it is imposed by a large majority.


    Yes he does. But he doesn't have the courage to say it directly. He agreed with NGNM85 about giving freedom of speech to nazis.

    Oh really ??
    :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

    The percentage of "wonderful things" against bad things is too uneven to make religion worth it.

    That's fucking stupid. Nobody suggested that. We suggested that public areas should be laic and there shouldnt be religious propaganda. We aren't going to ban things like that, now you are just lying and playing NGNM85's game. Do you think we would ban the burqa and other religious expression ???

    You can't even make the difference between propaganda and expression, you are fucking pathetic.

    Your opinions smell bad, it smells the odour of capitalism, liberalism and individualism. My patience and respect for those ideas is very little. Except when the person question himself and doesn't refuse to listen, which isn't your case.
     
  16. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ah, I'm glad things cleared up a bit in this thread.

    Your (ungov) posts were leading me to think you wanted to ban all kind of religious expression and that nothing good could come out of religion (even if very small comparing to the bad things) which I now see was a misunderstanding.

    I agree with you and Bunny, sorry if I somehow offended you on the other thread but you were a bit - let's say - "rough" too.

    :beer:
     
  17. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    yes virgina, there is a line...
     
  18. Protspecd

    ProtspecdExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yes it is a part of religion but individual belief of god can exist without religion I guess. Just saying I don't mind if people are on here that have thsoe kinda beliefs without religion.
     
  19. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Some good thing can come out of stalinism too.... Yet i see nobody defend stalinism and dictatorship on this forum...

    Do you understand that it is religion that invented the concept of god ? Without the religion we wouldn't even know what the fuck a god is.... It is definatly part of religion and if you believe in god you are religious. Maybe you are not actively praticing christianism, but you are religious.

    By the way, i hope your Henry Rollins quote in your signature is sarcasm ?? Henry Rollins is a fucking sellout..
     
  20. Protspecd

    ProtspecdExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I know it invented the concept or at least was the first to write it down into a book, what I am saying is you don't have to follow the typical religions out there that refer to bibles etc. I should have been more clear about what I was saying, I apologise. I do agree, you are religious if you believe in a higher power, I got caught up in bible = religon, my mistake. I disagree with people that refer to things like the bible but I don't mind people having their own beliefs on how this earth was created and what happens after you die etc.

    My signature, I like what he said, I love when musicians follow that path. Him being a sellout or not, I like that quote.