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Radicals and transphobia?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by JBastard, May 30, 2013.

  1. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Skating on thin ice, this is derogatory sexist language and is against the forums charter, please make your points without resorting to gender shaming.
     
  2. sheep6665

    sheep6665Active Member Forum Member


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    Aug 15, 2012
     
    Because the language I use is so important that it makes the content worthless... Especially because we were discussing kind of non-existing issue.
     
  3. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    this sentence alone shows that you are one of the greatest ignorants of our time, almost every statement you gave is sexist (stereotyping individuals on grounds of gender), biologistical (reducing human nature to bare instinct and atavistic signal receiving), completeley ignorant of sociology (rape isn't about sexual drive but about violence and control), ignorant of medicine too (we lost the ability to receive pheromones long long ago - because we developed social bonding like parentship and family), you bend and twist wikipedia quotes to fit your needs - finally i have the notion that you live somewhere far far far from the real world, where the mass of female "yuppies" is by far the more pleasant half of the more successful elite wage slaves, just because they don't have to wave their omnipotence right into my face every minute of my time. and like the majority of women I still have to struggle hard to find a job that "fits" - guess this - in your world - non-existing issue was never featured in "mens health"?
     
  4. sheep6665

    sheep6665Active Member Forum Member


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    Aug 15, 2012
     
    Yeah, stay mad.
    I am stereotyping genders basing on stats(because things like average wage are statistical in their nature, so it makes sense in this part), deal with it or do whatever you want. If it means it's sexist then logic is sexist, if logic is sexist then... well I don't know, do something illogical like rape some guy(but remember that "forced penetration" doesn't count as rape for some reason, so you're going to need a strap-on).
    As for rapes, human nature etc. If you'd be addicted to cigs would you tell that your hypothetical lung cancer isn't your fault? Using your logic, you would. While cigs aren't the only reason why someone could have it, but they greatly contribute to make it happen. Same goes for rape, the action-reaction, animal-like nature of humans is of course, covered by logic, reasoning etc. but having its existence in mind is still important, and I don't see a reason why should I punish someone who built a bridge just because some suicidal person decided to jump off it.
    Your next smartass text:
    Is apparently true here you go:
    I forgot to add that 9% of these people are man, so add it up to the number of prisoners raped.
    I'm manipulating as fuck, I'm gonna work in propaganda.
    Also, I've never bought "Mens health" nor I've read it, so try harder, show your absolutely non-sexist stereotypes :lmao:
     
  5. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    oh dear darling, don't worry about me, just doing the best I can...

    about sexism (only aquick collection:)
    where are the statistics for these statements you made?

    about statistics:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics
    please note this:
    about logic:
    so I'm quite curious how you will set your statements in relation/context with statistics and logics, especially the saying about who rules whom, who's expected to earn more, the non-existent women-shifts or the ilusionary flocks of yuppie women I see where I work or when I ride a sub getting close to the business center, the university or the area where our government lurks aroung (we're a federal capital).

    some (honestly!) wellmeaning advice:
    think twice about what you type off into the internets, some common sense alone is enough to make you look like a clown, especially when you start to juggle with terms you obviously never have understood.
    stereotyping via statistics is pure and simple bullshit, an oxymoron, because statistics... see above.
    I really don't care about your masturbation phantasies, but stating such thing in public might end up getting you in trouble for sexual harassment.
    but I rather think you wanted to tell me that you have a penis - sorry, sweetheart thats petty irrelevant.
    and because you don't know it:
    translation by googletrans and me:
    rape (synonym: Stuprum obsolete: rape) occurs when a person forces another against his/her will, or by threat of imminent danger to life or limb, or by taking advantage of a situation in which the victim is defenceless against the action of the offender, to the consummation of sexual intercourse (vaginal, oral or anal penetration) compels or commits other particularly degrading sexual acts, or forces the victim to perform the intrusion into the body (oral penetration or other sexual acts) (qualified sexual acts). It does not matter whether the victim is penetrated or the body of the offender. Thus, for example, is also the violently forced oral intercourse, in which the offender receives the penis in the mouth of the victim, described as rape. The offense of rape is governed by § 177 of the Criminal Code.
    see, honeybunny: no toy necessary to go behind the bars and a lot of people - by the majority women, but also gays, prisoners or captives in cop arrest - can tell you horribe stories about other bodyparts or objects used during the torment of torture they had to go through. I hope this shuts your mouth up in shame.
    sorry, this is the riddle part? - I'm not good at that, I'm good at refusing to compare apples & onions.
    so if you care to explain the argument you tried to make, so please darling...
    so you are definitely of the biologistic trade, don't expect a congratulation for your view that is exactly the theory of rightwing blood&soil sciences, guess I don't have to mention how these ended or rather became undead, still breeding in primitivists, anti-civilisation bummers and aryan fanboys...

    correct me if i get it wrong:
    rape is the reaction of receiving sexual pheromones signalling readiness to mate -
    in other words rape is just natural and not a crime.

    honey: if you really believe this, you are a complete and utter idiot - and I think that this forum isn't a place for people with such a degree of inhuman and criminal character.

    there is a theory about the "rape mythos", used to bagatellize/play down/minimize sexual violence.
    summarized the mythos says that women want to be conquered by men because of her feminine nature. thus it is impossible for "rape" to exist as an act of violence. the myth pardons/excuses the offender and blames the victim ("offender-victim reversal" or victim blaming). the myth is an expression of misogynie.
    (Janet Anderson: Rape Myths. May 2007 I translated it from my german copy)

    (crash course:)
    behavioral experiments to reseach the evidence for pheromone steering in human sexual behavior show, that the female probands had to wear surgical masks drenched with male pheromones or had to receive spreads directly on the skin between upper lip and nose to show a hormonal reaction.
    there are no corresponding successful experiments with male probands know - simply because:
    transfered into the real world: a "natural" rapist has to stick his or her nose for quite a while under into the armpit or pubic region of the later victim to get only the chance of receiving female/male pheromones signalling readiness to mate - and again: there is no evidence that males still are able to receive a signal.

    about rape and sexual drive & far from the cover-up of logic, reasoning etc.:

    in a peep show setting, male probands were shown soft porns while they were carrying a measuring device on their penis to document blood pressure, puls frequency and humidity.
    the majority of these men reacted with an erection and a documented state of arousal.
    then the soft porn was replaced with a hard core movie, featuring a (of course staged) rape and drastic humiliation of women begging for mercy.

    the measuring device registrated a sudden change:
    the erections of the majority of probands vanished suddenly, the pubic humidity decreased drastically
    only blood pressure and puls frequence leveled high as in a dangerous situation, many probands left the cabin, protesting against the brutality shown in the movie.
    (I'll post the authors and publication as soon as I get the report from the library)

    so, sheep6665: T H I S I S H U M A N N A T U R E - at last in the real world outside.

    the rest of the paragraph is another riddle, so see above...

    okay, this was a mistake by me, after the fit-to-you-needs - I wanted to paste in this:
    and ask for your source because I could not find your quote in the article you linked up, besides that I wanted to add this:
    and note: this quote comes from the US state depart of justice - to my knowledge its the boss of the fbi and the other investigating authorities, this explaines the higher number. just because your numbers-juggling shows only the statistics (darn things these) of only the fbi.
    so you can choose I guess: should I regard you as uneducated loudmouth or as a bad manipulator?
    it's up to you.
    again I don't know what this sentence means in your world of, your numbers are only a fractions of the real numbers, and rape is a crime no matter if the victim is a woman, male, child or an animal.
    I honestly belive you, the state of your view on the world is far to fucked up even for mens health.
    but somehow I don't have the feeling I should apologize for this, and I keep my mouth shut and don't say what I really think of you.
     
  6. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    He's been axed into a new dimension and he will not be returning... :ecouteurs:
     
  7. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 25, 2012
     
    Wow, this really got weird.
    On-topic: its completely backwards that there are so many transphobic feminists, I honestly didn't even realize that existed until now(because it totally doesn't make sense). Most of these "feminists" are just white privileged kids with too much spare time on their hands that think they've conquered the patriarchy solely by growing out their armpit hair. Its honestly starting to piss me off though, with femen and all that other racist, xenophobic "feminist" bullshit. Seriously.
     
  8. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    it's so damned d i f f i c u l t to deal with the wolf within sheeps.
    but I really wish I could beam him back into the real world:
    right into our local youth culture purgatory to reanimate his zombiefied psyche, have him learning how to communicate and deal with people in vitro, in private & between the sheets too, maybe with some professional behavioral therapy, just & only to make sure.
    there is a lot of hard working people too, different but equal & in need of reinforcements, then:
    a final healthy dose of education, from Dr. Herbert West to... well, I guess that would be up to himself.
    voila: a fellow human being comes back from afar.

    and in case you can read it:
    listen sheep6665: don't cage yourself in, it only sets the wolf free - but the times of the wolves are gone.


    on-topic:
    during my nurse training I worked six months in a surgical unit where trans people recovered from taking the last hurdle, we had long talks after works and I still have contact with two of them, I regard them as my friends.
    they help me a lot to (re)consider my own position on "being oneself" again & again, between us it's one & the very same struggle we have to fight, even if our motives and backgrounds are different.
    the ordeal they had & still have to go through is so much harder than the "little" difficulties I have:
    the lack of acceptance and respect of family & relatives, former friends & acquaintances, the struggle with immigration-, medical- & state authorities, fights with cops anf fascists:
    the whole fucking world you know seems to hate you, just & only because you had to - or only dared to step out of the line that was drawn for you when you were born.
    I know how it is to feel lonely and isolated - within an armslength of everyone who cared for you - but only as long as you were fitting their bill. after that: empty faces and silence until you can't take it no more and step out of everything. I was lucky, finally I got away by only leaving it all - but I still miss it dearly.
    my problems are nothing compared to the fundamental denial trans people have to endure, but we share the same struggle for the right & support to be oneself, free from sex- and genderlimits, social constructs meant to cage people in, just because one was born to be something that t h e y expected you to be.

    feminism
    growing bodyhair is at least a start, but of course it means nothing if the go-for-it ends with that. guess I always had some distrust in exclusive structures, my search for something "feminist"/promising was quite desperate during meetings and discussions in radical circles, but I found:

    the real radicals left sooner or later, quite often in AricMcBay-style or they were made leaving, followed by a perfect smear campaign - it's always them & iniltration & betrayal & they took the money...

    the remaining lot was the priesthood of the true woman-dom, individually adorned with this or that slogan and cliche, self-deception and sunshineism and they always loved each other a lot.
    I still think many of them were busily building their complete Identity around their busy buisness, completely absorbed by the desperate need to fill up this empty shape with "feminin" infallibility.
    and of course - you have to be a woman to fit the bill, a natual one, born to carry the banner into the future...
    maybe people like chillipie lierre are just in for the money, she started in high school and it's amazing how the career stories are always the same if you compare the respective heroines of anti-porn etcetera pp and so on. I think they will do it into all eternity, maybe that's what they really want.

    this is DGR's answer to Aric McBay:
    http://www.deepgreenresistance.org/repo ... ric-mcbay/
    and to me it has that special moscow 1930-smell.
     
  9. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 25, 2012
     
    Well us humans tend to have this really dysfunctional relationship/love for a society that doesn't have love for us. I actually remember seeing a documentary about trans people where the suicide rates were sort of used as an "AHA see, we knew you didn't REALLY want to change!1", but that there are still racist and transphobic (radical)feminists really was sort of a shocker. I'm glad someone actually brought up the topic though, this needs to be talked about.

    Growing body hair does nothing when you have a white/eurocentric imperialist mindset though. All women/people in general have to be respected for their choices, whether its caking on makeup, eating meat, wearing a hijab or being a freaking stripper. Body hair doesn't, or shouldn't, even be such a big deal. There are obviously more important issues in the movement when poc, trans people or even religious people don't want to to be associated with the feminist movement because they either a) don't have a voice and are being spoken for or b) just aren't accepted. If we can't accept people as they are then who the fuck will? I'm gonna go sit in a corner and be angry at all the assholes out there now.
     
  10. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    an outsiders attempt about the "procedure", or:
    how would you prove that you are what you are - showing your secondary genitalia?

    the ordeal of acknowledgement around here where I live takes between 5 and 8 years.
    the authorities want the aspirant to "prove" his/her claim - if successful, they give the minimal support the social state has on offfer, the physical transition, the correction of personal data (name and birth sex) and some aftercare options.

    the ordeal, or looking for an indication to start:
    - anatomical evidence is ignored (transpeople have brainstructures not corresponding with the genitals they are born with, some show distinct hormonal variances),
    - the importance of the psychological tests that are part of the clinical routine procedure "isn't" that important at all, "lets wait for the behavioral phase..."
    - the experience of successful "cases" of transition are completely ignored - there is not a single real "inside expert" involved in the decision-making (and I still wonder why).

    if the authorities are convinced enough, the first phase starts:
    you have to continue your life for a while exactly the way you lived before you asked for help and support, living with your family, continue to work and to pursue other aspects of life - under observation of the authorities.
    more psychological tests and interviews, always the same again and again, because they look for even minimal changes or conspicuousness, how long this part is going on is completely up to the involved authorities.

    if you convince them that you are not neurotic, borderlining or just completely crazy -
    because you do the best you can in hope for the change you need so bad -
    they'll just ask you for the xth time what your problem is...
    (guess I would regard/receive this as/like a kick right into my face.)

    the next stage is the change of ones outer/public side - they watch you wearing the "new" gender corresponding clothes, how you adapt to the life you need to live - while you are still forced to bear your first name, the very name you where given after the midwife looked at your baby 2nd genitalia.
    you aren't allowed new id-papers, so each cop checking your ID, each potential new landlord asking for your personal details, each authority worker, bank assistant, airport serviceperson thinks your a transsexual - or somebody using a badly forged ID.
    you have to deal with their reaction, don't give a back talk, try to explain for the xth time - but sorry:
    you don't get that apartment, no bank loan for you & your broken down car...
    too bad, that this phase of the ordeal also escalates the conflict of your personal social world,
    (oh, your dad wears your mommas skirts?)
    but what actually happens to your family relations, friends, colleagues and so on - isn't part of the procedure routines, they only watch how you go on, no mediation, no family therapy.

    if you give in, because you suffer too bad, they'll just say that you are "instabil", and question your claim again and again and again.

    worst case:
    unsuccessful suicideattempts - attempted extortion
    successful suicide attempts - problem solved, case closed.

    grand finals:
    the clinic - oh dear: "you asked for it"...
    don't expect too much emphaty, what you get is:
    professional care under todays rationalized circumstances, lots of experts and crackademic anatomy-mechanics, professionalism meets hebetation and burn-out zombies.
    don't expect to be treated as a human, you are a case amongst many others who had accidents or cancer.
    thanks to modern medicine the pain management is acceptable with patient-controlled spinal anaesthesia - you get a temporary implantat connected with a depot and a controll unit, so you can apply the painkiller yourself every time you need it and in exactly the potency you need to feel no pain.
    too bad if you feel the need of someone to talk to:
    sorry: the units psychiatrist is booked out, on further education, in vacation and if he/she shows up once in a lifetime, you're alone again very quickly after you say that you don't need medication.
    they always relate trauma with accidents or disease - transgender - well, he/she gets what she/he asked for... (I had serious fights with psychiatrists because of their stance).
    mistakes & shit happens, the nurses do their job in the tightly calculated day-to-day-routine, leaving not much of an opportunity to them to talk or comfort when necessary.
    some may suffer from a broken heart themselves because of this, it makes them prefering to keep some distance between them and the patient & the pain, not only in transition cases.
    so it's only you and what's left of your social relations outside, the rare nurse-saints you see only in their hurry, the clinic priests on patrol and maybe these trainee nurses too, trying to find out how to deal with what they see while working in the unit, coming in for a sec and a few words or a quick thumbs up.
    we were told to keep "professional distance" and to "evade getting too close" during the training, critics made during supervision-sessions were always smashed up with a "don't critisize or complain - this is your mistake, things are the way they are"... but fuck, it's not about things at all:
    it's about humans in pain.
     
  11. Jo Spanner

    Jo SpannerActive Member Forum Member


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    This... :(

    It's funny, really, how there are these anti-trans feminists. I believe one of the main reasons why we get so much shit in general, at least in MtF cases (because we get so much coverage for some reason), is because being a woman is seen as being inferior. Our gender issues are pretty much just a punch line in the media at the moment. We're fair game to be laughed at. Some people are directly abusive and physically violent towards us.

    Since I started my transition, I certainly don't feel inferior. Maybe it's my Anarcha-feminist shining through, but the abuse just strengthens my resolve. I was born into the wrong body. It's shitty, it's hard, and it's dangerous. But dealing with that places me on a level above the bigots who never have to worry about anything close to this sort of thing. I may never quite be a woman, but fuck it. I'm proud of what I am because it isn't easy. Easy would have been trying to ignore it and living an awful life, possibly committing suicide or drinking myself to death.

    Also the manarchist who got banned made for some good entertainment! Hopefully you grow up some day.
     
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