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Queer and Anarchist...sick of the self important wankers in the movement dismissing us!

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by QueerPunk, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. Ring Of Truth

    Ring Of TruthExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    You say there doesn't need to be separate groups to tackle each of theses issues... You must get tired fighting for everything all of the time, what is wrong with people who feel especially strong about an issue that affects their life directly (homophobia for example) focusing their fight on that issue. It doesn't mean that they ignore all other causes. I know what it is like to be alienated for being gay, I can remember when I lived in Minneapolis the stares that my ex-boyfriend and I got, I can remember my ex coming home from work telling me about how the cops bragged about beating up faggots for holding hands, and where I live now I hear people talking about "fag-bashing" kids, I know a kid not too far from where I live who killed himself because of the homophobic people in the small town he lived in. I know kids who have been stabbed for being gay.... etc. On the surface our world seems a lot more open, however there is still a huge amount of homophobia in our world. And you say that gay anarchist are elitists because they want to form a group to help fight the issues that they face everyday.
     
  2. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I resent that, I'm not drunk, I'm drinking
     
  3. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    This is a good point, while being an anarchist means you have a general concern for these issues, i don't see a reason not to pick a subject or two to focus on exclusively, it doesn't mean you are an elitist for doing so, especially since there are certain areas with less people throwing support towards, so why not break into "sub-commitees" (for lack of better word)? Picking battles doesn't mean you are giving up on any other causes.
     
  4. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I honestly vote for a 'gay-bashing-bashing' committee, though this could be the alcohol and its ego talking.
     
  5. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    You resemble that..I mean resent that? Oh My Bad... :D
    I say we all get really drunk and fly to Holland tonight and celebrate with Rathryn...Rathryn your buying us all a Round
    :beers: :beer: :beers:
     
  6. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sure, but you're uying tyhe rest of the night... anyway you've been warned in my intro-thread :p
     
  7. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Holland tonight seems like the best idea ever!
    Allways wanted to go there, and not for the tulips.
     
  8. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dude, far as I know you're welcome in Zeeland, it's just 2 hrs by train from Schiphol (or Amsterdam Airport) I'll get you a place to sleep :p
     
  9. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    can i take a raincheck on that..? :p
     
  10. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dude... far as I'm concerned you're all welcome, as long as it's one at a time :p
     
  11. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 12, 2009
     
    It exists.
     
  12. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Fuck, story of my life I'm too late once again :p
     
  13. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    but it couldn't hurt with one more!
     
  14. Jack

    JackExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    CPUSA also used to be the most powerful voice of the black community, go figuire. You're trying to act like I don't give a fuck about the freedom of people who aren't white first world males, which is bullshit, I just refuse to recognize an organization that ONLY cares about that as revolutionary. Single issues shouldn't be prioritized, the class struggle includes struggles against homophobia and racism, but we recognize them as a product of the class system, not something that can be destroyed through....whatever the fuck gay-only anarchist organizations do (seriously, the ones I've seen either sit around and talk, or just do the same shit that other anarchists do while excluding straight anarchists).

    So, because I'm not gay, any time I discuss gay issues I'm being paternalistic? Would you care to point out how? Organizing for "what you need right now" (other than the destruction of Capitalism, I guess we can put that off until later :/ ) IS reformism, because it's a focus on REFORMS. There is nothing revolutionary about organizing only gays, because you're only fighting for the issues of a single demographic, and exluding other demographics from your organization. A gay-only organization will never be a part of a revolution, no single issue or single demographic group can be (save where that demographic is a majority, but we're not getting into national liberation).

    Racism, sexism, and homophobia are all a PART of the class system you fucking idiot. A revolution can ONLY be based on class, there's no anarchist revolution based on gay rights, and there never can be, because it's a minority issue. Wheras the class struggle affects white males, black females, transgenders, absolutely fucking everyone. I care about gay rights, but that doesn't mean I support an organization of only gay anarchists, I support minority rights but it doesn't mean I'd support a group made up only of Asians. Because my class is my race, and a single demographic group can only serve the interests of that particular demographic, thus excludes that of others, thus is elitist and reformist.
     
  15. Spider

    SpiderExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I sometimes get the feeling you just like to disagree with people.

    either way the idea that all anarchists should be fighting all battles at all times regardless of their particular connection/knowlege of the issue as opposed to each individual issue being addressed individually by those it affects is fairly ridiculous. It's all the same fight at the end of the day, I think it's safe to say OP is committed to the class struggle just as much as they are their own personal struggle with oppression but they are in a particularly strong position to address the specific issues pertaining to sexual discrimination because they are issues which they regularly face. I daresay you have never feared persecution for your sexuality being a straight person, so why on earth do you consider yourself equally qualified to address the concerns of the gay community?

    I dunno. Seems a tad silly to me.

    Rathryn, I definitely am keen for beers one day. When I've saved up for my european holiday I will surely be hitting you up :beers: :rock:
     
  16. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 29, 2009
     
    I am not arguing for separation from the broader movement however there is a need for specifically Queer spaces as some of us are not always feeling as secure as Queers in mostly heteronormative society. The same can be said about the female identifying Anarcho-Feminists, they need a safe space where they can organise and discuss issues that matter to themselves without having to be vigilant about male identifying people in the room. It sucks but this is the truth.
     
  17. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Carcass seems to know what I am on about. But yes I probably was in a rather nasty mood when I started the thread. I am sure people here are pretty decent and from what I have seen on other threads, it is much nicer than most other Anarchist forums online so kudos and all that.

    It is quite different when you allign yourself in solidarity with another group however as much as I would associate my feminist politics with Anarcho-Feminists I cannot have a total understanding of their situation because I am a cisgendered (non-trans) male.

    Same applies to Queers organising in this case as I find that it is mostly us that know and can experience Queerphobia both verbally and physically...you know the small things like having bottles or abuse hurled at you for kissing or holding hands with your same-sex/gender partner.
     
  18. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    This is the direction I was heading in...
     
  19. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    I'm pretty hammered now at 3:31 am on the first day of the new year and as much as I admire Carcass' level, concise, and truly empathetic point of view... I have to recognize the kernel of truth in Jacks argument, as I think I hear you somewhat recognizing Queerpunk unless thats just the mix of Tequila and Vodka warping my perception? For once I have to say that both arguments are valid.....maybe tomorow I'll feel different
    :ecouteurs:
     
  20. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't think everyone would agree with that statement. Have you ever read anything Richard Wright wrote later in his life about his experience with the CPUSA? You might find it eye opening.

    No, I'm actually 100% convinced that you do care about people who aren't first world white males. I think you probably care way more than the average person, enough even to take drastic action. However, I think you're being frustratingly obtuse in your absolute refusal to just fucking listen when people from oppressed groups talk about their own experiences. I think you don't want to be part of any revolution that doesn't follow your own rigid design. You want there to be queer anarchists and black anarchists and female anarchists, you just want them to be doing what you think they should be doing, not what they think they should be doing. That is what I find so paternalistic about your attitude.

    So here's another question: IF organizing for anything but the "destruction of capitalism" is reformist AND "racism, sexism, and homophobia are all a PART of the class system" THEN how can organizing against racism, sexism and homophobia be reformist? As Talib Kweli put it, "your logic does not compute." If capitalism attacks people in many different ways doesn't it then follow that people can attack capitalism in many different ways?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you believe in the Marxist capital "r" Revolution that will abruptly flip the class system on its head at which point the last shall be first and so on. I don't. I believe in revolution, but I see it as a gradual process where progress is made through an uncompromising and escalating series of clandestine direct actions supplemented by various above ground campaigns that provide for the common welfare while forming a broad base of support for militancy. When I read about radical queer groups storming wealthy, gay-bashing megachurches and fucking on their altars in the middle of a televised service, that sounds like fuckin' anarchy to me. When I read about people of color kicking the shit out of neo-nazis and cops alike at a Klan rally, that sounds like fuckin' anarchy. When I read about black clad kids sneaking onto fur farms in the middle of night, releasing the animals and burning the sheds to the fucking ground, that sounds like fuckin' anarchy.

    :'( :'( :'(

    Boo fuckin' hoo. Queers get excluded all the time. And actually, you're not being "excluded" from anything, since that would imply that you were entitled to participate in the first place. What's happening is that you're just not being invited to participate in affinity group action because you consistently reproduce the same oppressive group dynamics queer anarchists have to deal with every day. Either that or you smell bad.

    Nobody said anything about organizing only queer folks or working on projects that will affect queer folks. What we're defending is the right of all identity groups to form caucuses where they get to decide how to best spend their time, not you.
     
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