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Queer and Anarchist...sick of the self important wankers in the movement dismissing us!

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by QueerPunk, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    For those who identify as being Queer and Anarchists or Anarcho-Queer vent here please...

    I am over the elitist intellectual hetero-shitheads who look through their nose at my ideas for a Pink&Black affinity group and cry "identity politics"...we identify as being oppressed people like all other Anarchists so get FUCKED!!!

    /rant
     

  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    anarchists are on the same side than all oppressed peoples willing to fight for an alternative society, of course we do not make discriminatory difference between sexual orientations!
     
  3. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    It's just that when I put a call out for a group a while ago elswhere, I copped shit for being a seperatist Queer hellbent on only identity politics. I'm sorry but there is fuck all mention of Queer related issues in the movement and like the Anarcho-Feminists we have to put up with heterosexist bullshit!

    It just annoys the fuck outta me to see the oppression carried through the movement that claims to be against Queerphobia and similar sentiments.
     
  4. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    well before judging the rest of us maybe you should get a feel for this site?
    just sayin' homie.....
    :beers:
     
  5. Ring Of Truth

    Ring Of TruthExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 28, 2009
     
    Your sexual orientation is a part of you that you cannot control, no more than a person can control the color of their skin. So to discriminate against someone for their sexual orientation in my mind is just as bad as racism or any other fascist tactic to keep us separated. I totally support the anarcho-queer movement! Personally I don't believe in the labels though I believe in love and lust... if you heart finds someone it loves it doesn't matter the gender of that person you just love that person and you should feel no shame in it... same goes for lust if you are sexually attracted to a person it shouldn't matter their gender. Not to sound like a hippie but I do believe in free love, that you should be free to love whomever you desire.

    When fighting for gay rights, just be careful not to get too caught up in labels. I am not gay, straight, bi, etc... I am a human being. What I am saying is don't discriminate against straight people who support your cause, it isn't their fault they are straight any more than it is yours you are gay.
     
  6. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    I was just gonna say that........ :D
     
  7. Jack

    JackExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 30, 2009
     
    Elitist intellectual hetero-shithead here, too bad you didn't call me a breeder too, it would be even more lulzy than your politics.
     
  8. BlinkoChrist

    BlinkoChristExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Not touching that one...

    But hey man, there are a lot of fuckheads and the movement I guess, and there's fuckheads everywhere, but around here we're cool with everything man, so you should feel welcome here :)
     
  9. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I had a three some with a transexual, it was pretty awesome.
     
  10. KnockItBack

    KnockItBackActive Member Forum Member


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    You're gay and I'm straight, that is not a choice, nor should it matter to anyone else.
    I think it is important to stand up for gay rights and don't think anyone should be oppressed for being who they are. But creating a group of gay anarchists next to a group of straight anarchists IS further separating us. Why can't we just be one group? If you don't think gay rights are being addressed enough then do something about it, but don't separate from those on your side because they are straight and you're not.
     
  11. Ring Of Truth

    Ring Of TruthExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I agree with this, but I don't think that the intention is to create a group opposed to another group. I think the idea is to find like-minded individuals to talk to, and to find support for each other. I mean I could be wrong but that is how I took the original post of this thread. I mean really isn't that what we are all here for to communicate with others of similar ideas, to help each other out, and to build a community. I mean why shouldn't there be groups of anarcho-queer or pink and black anarchists who want to address their specific issues which DO often times get pushed to the wayside by many anarchist heterosexuals who seem to think that anarchism is only a political ideal... it is lifestyle and community as well if we ignore the rights of those who are different than "us", or those who it isn't "cool" to address, then how can we ever bring about effective change. I mean seriously we can't populate a world with people who are just like "us", anarchism needs to include everyone, it HAS to for it to ever work. Creating Anarcho-queer groups, or anarcho feminist groups or anarcho-whatever groups it builds more communities for us to unite together in our fight for true freedom.

    Embrace and unite, not divide and separate. If the anarchists are united they will never be divided?

    Again just my opinion based on the original post. I apologize to if I am wrong about the original poster's intent.
     
  12. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Fuck, said before I lost any nuance I ever had, but if someone is straight or gay or bisexual that's their 'problem'. That's between tese ' thingys for a reason... fuck it's not a problem, so don't turn it into one. If someone makes it a problem it just means they ain't anarchist by a long shot anyway.
     
  13. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 12, 2009
     
    The divisions created by social constructs like race, sexual preference, gender presentation, class, etc. are something that we want to overcome. However, most of us have been socialized in a culture that systematically privileges an "in-group" (examples: hetero, able bodied, white) and systematically marginalizes "out-groups" (examples: queer, disabled, people of color). Part of overcoming those division is for people who have been socialized as part of the privileged in-group to recognize the way they might be unconsciously reproducing oppression.

    I don't know the situation to which QueerPunk is referring but I'm pretty sure we've all seen/participated in its various incarnations. Just because someone puts a circle-A patch on their clothing doesn't mean they're absolved from responsibility to FUCKING CHECK THEMSELVES. I've been a part of way, way too many self-styled "radical" groups that were just a bunch of white dudes taking up space, interrupting and ordering others around, talking theory like it was some abstract thought experiment and then doing fuck-all when it came time to do real work. I wouldn't say that all of these guys were bad people, just that they've been socialized to act as self-important important patriarchs. However, they are individuals with brains who claim to have an interest in fighting oppression, thus they need to be held accountable for their behavior.

    The purpose of the kind of identity-based affinity groups QueerPunk's talking about is to get a group together whose members are oppressed in similar ways owing to the label with which society has slapped them. The group identifies the needs they have been historically denied and then plans for their acquisition. This is done without the (sometimes disruptive) input of in-group anarchists because their input is not required; they do not experience this kind of oppression so how could we expect them to know what to do about it?

    In-group anarchists routinely overlook the needs of out-group anarchists because--no surprise--nobody can fully understand a need they don't experience. What seems like a really reasonable response from in-group anarchists (who, mind you, claim to fight against all oppression) is to listen when members of those oppressed groups speak on how we can help them fight. By listening and committing to fight in solidarity alongside out-groups, we undermine the artificial categories into which we've been separated.

    Unfortunately, a lot of the "elitist intellectual hetero-shitheads" who sit in the privileged in-group do not do the reasonable thing. Instead, they get defensive because having your privilege of control undermined is an uncomfortable feeling. They repeat the tired line that they know what's best for the out-group and that is to ignore their out-group status for the sake of "unity." In doing this, they ignore the direct experiences of oppressed people by presuming to know what's best for an out-group. They also ignore the fact that, no matter how "post-race" or "post-queerphobia" they claim to be, OPPRESSION STILL EXISTS. It doesn't matter how fucking illogical discrimination is, it still exists and people who occupy out-groups have to deal with it every fucking day.

    A side note to Jack and Rathryn: why don't you tell Brandon Teena to get over it? Tell Matthew Shepard he's overreacting. Let Duanna Johnson know that "it's her problem" and that she should just "ignore anyone who wants to make an issue" of her orientation. Guess what? The fact that you are able to ignore this situation is your privilege. You have that privilege because there's not a significant portion of the population that wants to kill you based on things you can't and shouldn't have to hide about yourself. If that's really the line you want to take--that it's not your problem when another anarchist tells you, "I need you as an ally"--then please never again wonder aloud why the movement is so fucking small.
     
  14. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I actually tried to say the same thing you tried to say, believe it or not, Varcass, but I blame alcohol atm (which is a lousy excuse at the best of times and this doesn't seem to be one). So instead I'll use one of your own arguments against you, not because it was you but because Holland, where I'm from if no one's noticed by now, is quite open to anyone'"queer", "they do not experience this kind of oppression so how could we expect them to know what to do about it?""
    Again, no harm was meant, my defintion of the sentence that is your 'problem'' is quite simple: if you dont bother me with it, I don't care wtf you think as long you don't bother me with it or anyone else. So staying true to the original starter of this thread, anyone saying they fight for anarchism who doesn't include 'queers' (I don't like the word at all, but can't think of a better noun to describe the situation better atm) is NOT an anarchist...
     
  15. Jack

    JackExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 30, 2009
     
    I was in the Gay Straight Alliance, I've done work with some organization named after Matthew Shepard, etc etc etc. Doesn't mean I support dividing our organizations based on single issue campaigns. Anarchists are anti-homophobia, at the same time we are anti-war, anti-racist, anti-capitalist, pro-choice, anti-state etc. That doesn't mean there needs to be seperate groups to tackle each of these issues.

    Not only are those things single issue, they're also discriminatory against people not part of those groups (your "in group" analogy kind of reverses when the "out group" begins to seclude people who aren't "in" with the "out group". There is no need for specifically gay organization, specifically black organization, specifically woman organization, specifically trans organization, specifically anti-war organization, the list goes on. Because all these groups separate from the general working class, divide potential organizations into small cliques, and get anarchists focused on reformist single issue campaigns, rather than general libertarian campaigns and intervention in the class struggle. Queer organizations, race based organizations, and women's organizations are all based on simple reformism, not revolutionary ideology. If you want to form a queer rights group that's fine, if you want to form a queer anarchist, communist, astronomer, whatever it may be organization, then you're being elitist and exclusive, and reformist.
     
  16. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone they can't take part in an identity group when they've never experienced what it's like to be part of that identity. However there are some exceptions (white identity groups for example who breed nothing but animocity towards other groups).
     
  17. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jack, the Communist Party USA used to say the exact same thing to blacks: "don't worry, you'll be free from racism, just wait a little longer until we've dealt with the class war." Oppressed groups are tired of waiting for privileged groups to put their money where their mouths are. If the in-group won't prioritize the needs of all oppressed groups then they are the ones being divisive because they're only looking out for the one kind of oppression that affects them: classism.

    They don't necessarily. But you ensure their separation by completely alienating them when they express something so basic as frustration with the incredibly paternalistic demeanor you adopt when discussing "their problems." You're really going to lob charges of reformism at people who organize on their own for what they need right now? Last I heard, that was called "direct action." A revolution based solely around class is what's reformist--it tacitly approves the existence of other oppressive power dynamics.

    Only if you completely ignore the historical power imbalances that have given rise to the situation in the first place.

    Excuse me but, who the fuck are you to tell all gays, all blacks, all women and all trans people what they need? Get over yourself.
     
  18. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Rathryn, I still don't really understand what you're saying... o_O

    ...but I agree with this:

     
  19. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    1) Holland is openminded towards gays, lesbians and queers of anuy other kind you can possibly think of, soe I don't know their problems in the same sense they do in other countries. We actually acctually same-sex marriage as a justified marriage, etc.

    2) it's your "problem" just means it's your thing to do and as long as you don't bother me or anyone else with it I don't care what you think or do. If you don't hurt anyone else with it, don't bother anyone else with ti, who am I to judge?
    I hope that's a bit clearer, I think we're thinking on the same kind of level, but on parallel lines rather than the same lines... lol
    If I'm still not clear I'll try again when I'm sober ;)
     
  20. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Rathryn's a little drunk right now...when queerpunk started the thread he was a little abrasive because he was agravated at another site where he tried to freely express his views, which I completely understand. There are going to be as many natural divisions under the Black Flag as there are different people, I don't see any problem with that as long as it keeps within anarchist ideal. Jack there shouldn't be a cookie cutter Anarchist, one size fits all Revolution. There will be diversity and we should absolutely embrace and celebrate that fact.
     

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