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PRISON ABOLITION???

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by drumdestroyer15, Mar 15, 2010.

  1. drumdestroyer15

    drumdestroyer15Active Member Forum Member


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    Obviously among the anarchist community, the idea of prison is our antithesis. However i have never really heard too many idea's of what would ever substitute it. I have read about "communal contract" type's of things but what would say a person couldn't just continuously move around and steal what they want as they went for example? I also understand how a large part of crime could be stopped if government and capitalism were largely removed, due to the changes in social structure. An example being, if there was no government to make drugs illegal it would take alot of power away from gangs and they wouldn't have as much need for violence since people could grow/make them themselves largely, or if we had no currency and people relied on trade there wouldn't be as much power to be gained from selling them or even the necessity that exsist's in some places where its the only way can make a living. Regardless of any changes that would happen every society is always going to have individuals that choose to steal and/or hurt others. So my question is what to do with those people? Sometimes, to me, it seem's like forcibly removeing them society WOULD be the only way.
     

  2. statuliber

    statuliberExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 13, 2009
     
    hmm most of the crimes would vanish once the classes are overcome...
    and the people who have the urge to do crimes (like sexual offenders) should get treatment.

    actually my personal opinion is that crime should be handled by the local communities or syndicats, but according to some points of unity
     
  3. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    some people would be removed, hannibal lector etc and u might be able to see them clearer? perhaps and then places of incarceration wouldn't become 'industries', everythings based in money, thats the problem, no money, no shelter, no clothes, no clean water, no food, theft, breaking and entering, drugs to stave off the cold, addiction, trying to feed addiction.........................$$$$$$$$$$$$

    prisons r nuthin but a training and recruiting ground and badge of honour to train to be a worse person and its been on going too long

    which is also why i believe people of spirtuality should be more busy, as its still used as bias leaing to the money equation and exploitation 360 degrees

    they've got it sewn up but we'll sew them shut and peolpe can then go to the beach, i've found some people r just antiscocial though ie: people oooh; but then we could take certain national places of interest and development back so more free space

    cities r badly organised and almost unsustainable and most would choose to work less hours while doing more effective work 'for the community' as well as their own self worth, not sayin ya'd have to work but if ya want stuff ya gotta dig yea

    we've gone backward in terms of some liberal ways of doing things due to the industrial revolution so we are capable of dealing with things without being exclusive or draconian or totally spiteful, humans r amazing beings which is why it only takes a few buttons to push to create good or bad(nature and nurture), its not rocket science and its not utopia but its the best thing next too, things r just shitttttt now for any person who actually believes in freedom which is why we will never ever give in or up, for allllllllllll
     
  4. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    Would theft even be possible in a world that believes: 'property is theft'?
    I personally do not feel the need to abolish property in and of itself, merely an abolishment of money and a communal storage of food and building materials.
    I for one enjoy collecting stuff, mostly worthless crap to others, and these are my building materials. Also I enjoy collecting books and records (though the latter is a pretty small, shabby collection at best). So I'm not too sure what theft would have to do with it, as there would be very little need to steal anything but food or clothing, which would be communal from the start.
     
  5. rude-boy

    rude-boyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Mar 12, 2010
     
    this is my biggest hinderence in thinking about anachy aand if it would work. once the prisons are gone and everythign is chaned there would be nothing stopping me from killing some one beacuse they pissed me off or there will be nothing stopping me from busting into your house and taking your record collection. other then the eprson im doing these things to of course. so everythign would turn into survivle of the fittest? which i am sure is not a good way to start a new way of living where every one is scared that they will be robbed or scared of beign killed beacuse you pissed some one off. scared the child molester that would have been busted long ago for kiddy porn might be raping my young sister. wouldent it infulence people to take up arms(which isent so bad) but it would make them paranoid and feel forced to use their guns at a fist sign of trouble beacuse there is nothign stopping me from using my gun against them.

    im not sayign thats how i would be. not sayign i would go crazy busting into houses killing every one. i dont think i could ever do that but i knwo there are many many many people more then willing to kill you and me to get them selfs a new car or new what ever they wanted. its horrible i fin my self sayign how much i think we need the things we are fighting against...every one just needs to learn how to get along and not be so power hungry and greedy and the world would just be better....
     
  6. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    Just picking out two of the things that stand out for me... so anyway, I think this would be a concern of the COMMUNITY not just the potential victim, therefore we'd have to look out for each other.
    Yes you could, that's what makes it scary. ANYONE can kill under the right circumstances (or maybe rather the wrong circumstances).
    No, I think it's not, simply because that means you have given it some thought and found that you know of no better alternatives. Admitting ones failures is the first step in overcoming them, innit? :)
    And I think this forum is a great place to speak out on things that confuse you or that you wonder about, simply because people seem inclined to treat said 'problems' with respect and answer honestly and honourably (in my eyes at least).
     
  7. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    wow, i don't even fathom how anyone can think prisons aren't needed. would you rather child molesters, rapists, killers, just live among us with no consequence? sure a lot of petty crime would die in an anarcho society, but there is always going to be people who want to break the rules, and if there are no prisons, there better be some sort of established way to deal with crime, and i have yet to see a good response to this. (and if u search through the old threads you'll see this topic has been brought up before.)
     
  8. rude-boy

    rude-boyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Mar 12, 2010
     
    so i wasent so off thinking it would be bad news bears... maybe some kind of system where u send them to live among their own like how australia once was or a guy i was working with was talkin to me about old prisen camps in northern quebec area that were a mining villiges and if the prisoner wanted supplys they had to meet the days qouta of what ever was being mined..but that seems crual to me
     
  9. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    I don't have a solution at the moment, but i don't believe prison is the way to go. Has anyone ever actually gotten helped in any way by having been locked up?

    I did a small artproject, a performance kind of thing, where i shut my self in a small room with no windows, having with me food and a bottle of water, papers, pens and some music. I was in there four days between 9 and 16, and on the fourth day i let others come in and look at what had becomen of this. This was such limited experiment, such short time and for so few hours a day, but i wanted to se how it would feel, how i would react, so it gave me an insight, if ever so small, to how it could be to be deprived of my freedom.
    Day one it felt very good. I was relaxed and enjoyed the time to think, i drew a lot and started to build up piles of drawings in the room.
    Day two i started to get anxious. It wasn't relaxing any more, i was still drawing but i couldn't focus on anything but the time left in the day. The drawings got put out on the floor more frenetically.
    Day three i didn't even want to go there. I started to feel very alone and didn't enjoy the solitude one bit. Didn't draw much eighter, spent a few hours just walking around in the room.
    Day four when i let others in, i felt very much like in a cage, like an animal at a zoo or something. I felt like everyone was judging me somehow, like they went out of there and laughed at me. I don't actually think they did that, at least not all of them. Maybe those who didn't understand what i did. But every time i got left alone there again, i was just waiting for someone to get there or for it to turn 4 so i could go home.
    Don't think this experiment was so interesting to anyone else, but to me it was. I didn't think i'd feel so locked up and so far from the rest of the world in such short time, especially since there wasn't even a lock on the door and the only thing stopping me from walking out was me.

    So, locking people up i don't think is a good solution. Still i don't know what the better solution would be for everything.
     
  10. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    what about the general population? not having to live in fear that certain criminals are among them? prisons are are for rehabbing the inmates, it's to protect everyone else from people who have decided to do things like kill and rape.

    As far as sending people away to a penal colony, that is basically the same thing as a prison, only now the weaker inmates will be at the mercy of more dangerous people.

    Again, i dont think prisons will be nedded for everything in an anarcho society. There won't be drug crimes, tax evasion crimes, etc. But there are always going to be killers, rapists and molesters, and frankly, even if it's a mental condition and not a choice, i still wouldn't want them around me or my family.

    Again, I am open to alternative suggestions to prisons, i just have yet to hear any i feel are valid. And i'd rather not live in a world that ends up being all about vigilante justice and with hunts.
     
  11. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    I can't believe how conservative your views are sometimes for an Anarchist Anxiety....75% to 90% of inmates locked up in California are in for crimes associated with drugs....The CDC's officers union is the strongest union in the entire State, some officers pull as much as $200, to $250,000.00 in pay a year and every single politician in the state owes part of their career to this union. The United States has the highest civilian to inmate ratio in the world, now as much as 1.5%. And you say we need them for killers, rapists and child molesters? Forgive me but you sound exactly like a paranoid Orange County law and order Republican. You asked me one time where you could get more directly active...remember? Now I think you should immerse yourself with Anarchist Black Cross and become educated in prisoners affairs and truly learn why we absolutely do not need any more prisons but less and less prisons......
     
  12. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    anxiety ahhhhh, i alredy sed they would be needed for 'dangerous' nutty nutters people, obvs u ignore everythin i say now as u've dun it in 2 threads is all, cheers

    oh except mentioning the 3 lettered person haha, 'dog' and rude boy get some readin yo from a local info shop, cheers
     
  13. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    In Colorado, prison population continues to rise despite a rather dramatic drop in violent crime rates in recent years (compare Denver in 2009's violent crime rate to that of Denver in the early 1990's and it would look like Denver is about the nicest city around!), incarceration rates climb because of imprisonment on drug related charges. This not only hurts the prisoners locked up for victimless drug related crimes, but victimizes university students and their parents who were promised a drop in state university tuition, only to see these promises broken and the funding for them spent on care for the prison populations. With the abolition of drug related persecution we will have almost no prison population. This would lead us to believe that there is no nessecity for a prison population in a functioning anarchist society. However, this leaves us with the rather sticky situation of violent criminals. In my opinion the best way to deal with those criminals would be in a judicial system similar to that of the U.S's (right to an attorney etc.) except with non-coercive punishments determined by the commune that the suspect is part of. The fact is that violent criminals use coercion on their victims and deplete the liberties of those they attack. In the same way that I should be able to beat a cop who attacks me, I should also be able to banish a rapist from my community with the help of my comrades.
     
  14. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    there has to be some rules as it could get sticky when someone just makes an accusation and it dismisses confusion about power struggle, seen it happen tooo many times, thats what rules r for.
     
  15. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    ok, like i said, if i'm wrong, give me alternative solutions that are viable. You want me to ignore that there are sick fucks out there? You want me to deny that certain people want to kill and hurt others and wouldn't blink an eye over it? You seem to not have noticed how i said drug crimes would be eliminated in an anarcho society because presumably they would be allowed by whoever wants them. Your facts are great and all but they still dont show me that we dont need prisons for dangerous fuckers, or show me how to deal with them if not through prisons.
     
  16. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    That's why I said get involved with prison activism through ABC if you are really interested in 'viable alternatives', or do nothing proactive.
     
  17. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    rekon and i sed u may need someit like prisons for people like that, just not set up like a cattle stop for anyone who 'disagrees', r u ok 2day anxiety bro, u appear to be missing major points.

    u want a breakdown of how they couldn't exist, stop being unmaleable, i don't believe it is possible to not have some kind of alternative for very dangerous animals/people rather than complete abolition, it may not be called a prison? but hey you may only need one building instead of a whole industry round the world oh and listen to punkmar, they got the steez.
     
  18. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    Great is there a similar chapter near here or am I just fucked because I can't think of viable alternatives on my own?
     
  19. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    http://squat.net/abcamsterdam/index.php?section=3
     
  20. drumdestroyer15

    drumdestroyer15Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 6, 2009
     
    So as i've been reading the responses it seems like most of us do all agree that while most crime would dissapear those who still choose to step on the rights of others would have to be removed from our society. The question is simply forcing them out of the community good enough? After all they could continue there behaviour elsewhere, and with situations like child molesters, rapists, and murderers i think they'd be to dangerous to just make move. Short of maybe those who have mental problems i think we would have to keep some sort of prison type system for the "bad apples". I like one idea i've heard of simply making those who steal work till they paid back what they took for the community, but for continuously violent criminals maybe just ship 'em off to their own communes with no outside help??? At least that way if they wanted to survive they'd have to learn to cooperate with other ppl. Just an idea. I'm still interested in hearing more as well.
     
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