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Peter Kropotkin

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by Kobac, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Im starting to get a picture, but one question hasn't been answered, you say that stallinist communism was actually a dictatorship, which is why most people are scared of communism, but you still havent explained how it will work, as far as will there be a leader / overseer / whatever? or will it be more of an honor system?
     
  2. vectoman

    vectoman Active Member Forum Member


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    Which are most people, so the word communism scares a lot because of the media distorted definition.
     
  3. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Don Pedro Kropotkin

    [​IMG]

    :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs:
     
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Of course no, no leader or any bullshit like that, it's power by the people like in any other anarchist theory

    Anarcho-communism is an horizontal hierarchy (instead of a vertical hierarchy like in communism dictatorship). The people themselves decide of the decisions through popular assemblies, syndicates, communes, etc... Then anarcho-federalism is used to federate the decision of everyone, but if you follow what i'm trying to explain the decisions come from the bottom, anarcho-federalism is just a way to put all those decisions together

    as for the other question, anarchosyndicalism and anarcho-communism aren't mutually incompatible, anarchosyndicalism is more a way to fight, they believe the organization of the revolution should be through syndicate because it is the biggest force of the workers and the best way to stuggle... For example the spanish revolution was typically anarcho-syndicalist and even today most of the anarchosyndicalists work with organizations from the spanish revolution heritage : CNT, CNT-FAI, CNT-F, etc... Spanish revolution went anarchosyndicalist because when the government disseapeared, syndicates was all that was left for the workers to organize, so it was a quick and easy way to federate the peoples and keep minimal order. And also because of years and years of anarchosyndicalist propaganda before the revolution

    But like i said it isn't mutually incompatible, in anarcho-communism the syndicates would be a big part of the organization tools

    As for kropotkin's writtings, I also suggest "the ethics of anarchism" and "the anarchist morale", two big referrence for the anarchist ideas (and not only anarcho-communism)

    Note that kropotkin was a russian and he was exiled from the communist russia after the revolution and was one of the first victim of the repression, another proof he have nothing to do with authoritarian communism. He was also a friend and supporter of Voline, another notorious russian anarchist who was one of the biggest opponent to communist russia. He wrote a book called "the red fascism" against the bolcheviks, and he also wrote one of the best critic of russian revolution, called "the unknown revolution", a huge book in 3 parts that i recommand to everyone who want to know the true face of the russian revolution.
     
  5. Kobac

    Kobac Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I was born during the communist regime in Yugoslavia-now Croatia.I m not big fan of communism,but leader of yugoslavia was Josip Broz Tito he was good person with some unsolved issues.During his regime worker had bigger rights than some CEO-s,worker was everything in yugoslavia,they had self-managment,where they decided what s good or wrong.they had bigger salarys than some military officers.
    Here in Croatia they think that J.B.Tito was a dictator because of problems like religion(he was atheist like most communists are)Croatia is Christian mostly(so no christmas,or easter),also they were unhappy with the idea that he made Belgrade capitol of Yugoslavia(problem was that most of the money was being spent on Serbia not others countrys of Yugoslavia)
    J.B.Tito was accused for crimes against people who marched to Bleiburg(Austria) at the end of the WW2(he forced people who were helping Hitler in war(Ustase,Cetnici) to leave Yugoslavia and let theirs fate being decided by the nazis(allies at that time)lot of those people was from Croatia,Serbia,etc.

    His biggest crime was that he annihilated a population called FOLKSDOJCER(people from Germany,Austria)after the WW2.

    He saved Yugoslavia from certain destruction during the WW2,in some parts of former Yugoslavia he s still treated like a wise man,good leader,good man

    Yugoslavia was nothing like USSR(USSR at the begining of 1960-s were planning to launch attack on Yugoslavia because of good relationship with west-capitalist-world like Usa,U.Kingdom),or Romania and Cuba.

    i know that this is not related to this topic but little bit of info
     
  6. Lunadimae

    Lunadimae Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    There would be no leader/overseer/whatever, there will be the people, they vote for decisions and may even form federations or assign representative/spokesperson (whom may be recalled at any time and have no other power or duty other than to deliver a certain message) to deliver their vote instead of a thousand or so marching to the meeting place at once.

    Every decision is made by the people as a whole, there would be no leader or a rich old man to give his opinion as law on behalf of the millions of people he rules.

    Besides how did you think there would be a leader in an ANARCHO-Communist society?
     
  7. back2front

    back2front Experienced Member Experienced member


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    One of the problems for anarchists has always been disinformation - the media and academic interpretation of anarchism is often simply mistaken but more often than not it is a deliberate propaganda to discredit these ideas.

    The word communism has been popularized in the West as meaning "red dictatorship" and is associated with oppressive regimes in China and the former USSR.

    If you go back to the First International, when many of the worlds radical socialists met and discussed the future, there were a lot of ideas floating about. When Karl Marx eventually wrote "The Communist Manifesto" he was actually putting a lot of different theories discussed at the First International some of which were not his own. Communism was a word more associated with anarchists before Marx but his stamp on it.

    A commune is the same as a tribe, a clan, a village, a workers soviet, a syndicate, a local assembly or community - basically the people who live in a local area coming together at a meeting to discuss the best way to run their community -to use a cliche 'people power'. It can also be called horizontalism.

    State communism is a radically different concept - like state capitalism it is a vertical power structure. Workers are coerced to work for the state.

    Anarcho-syndicalism is about groups of workers, who can and should control the means of production, withdrawing their labour and forming a syndicate. The syndicate will take over and run the factory or workshop and production will be centred on a gift economy - to each their need. When this is achieved we have the beginnings on anarchist-communism.

    All I can say is if you are really interested in anarchism go read about it - the library at libcom might be a good place to start...
     
  8. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    Communism, in Marx original form, wasn't a form of government. It was the lower classes, the workers, that were in control, and who would control the economy trough unions.
    Leninism talked about a strong state - and Leninism, and later Stalinism, was what the USSR followed. Lenin believed, that the only way to create a society where the people were in total control, was by creating a strong government - and then, when total equality existed, abolish the state slowly.
    Stalin changed that, so that the state was in control, and trough out the USSR's history, it just became more and more of a dictator state.

    The same with Mao in China - It's not real communism. Real communism has never been seen in history on any larger scale.

    The only contradiction i see in Anarcho-Communism, is that Marx disliked Anarchist, because he believed, that if people distanced them self to society, they left people behind - which wasn't in the spirit of communism. But the end result that Marx wanted, was pretty much the same as the Anarcho-communist's.
     
  9. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Communism, in Marx original form, wasn't a form of government. It was the lower classes, the workers, that were in control, and who would control the economy trough unions.
    Leninism talked about a strong state - and Leninism, and later Stalinism, was what the USSR followed. Lenin believed, that the only way to create a society where the people were in total control, was by creating a strong government - and then, when total equality existed, abolish the state slowly.
    Stalin changed that, so that the state was in control, and trough out the USSR's history, it just became more and more of a dictator state.

    The same with Mao in China - It's not real communism. Real communism has never been seen in history on any larger scale.

    The only contradiction i see in Anarcho-Communism, is that Marx disliked Anarchist, because he believed, that if people distanced them self to society, they left people behind - which wasn't in the spirit of communism. But the end result that Marx wanted, was pretty much the same as the Anarcho-communist's.
     
  10. xOutspokenx

    xOutspokenx Active Member Forum Member


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    Try to explain that to the average Joe (no pun intended)!

    The association of communism and state capitalism, effectively the economical system of all so-called 'communist' regimes, is just due to preconceptions caused by Cold War and free market capitalism. It's simply driven by ignorance on the subject and the theory, which is shocking to see even among academics and scholars. Anyone that really wanted could see how the characteristics of these regimes have absolutely nothing to do with classical Marxist communism, and that indeed they stand in antithesis with Marxist theories on the matter.

    Marx wasn't a saint (and there were a lot of holes in his theories), but it's just simply wrong to associate those regimes with the Marxist communism they claim to follow.
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Please if you are going to talk about real communism, talk about LIBERTARIAN COMMUNISM. Fuck Karl Marx, he was an authoritarian asshole, he has nothing to do with the communism that anarchists believe in.

    Marx believed in dictatorship of the proletariat, which would be just another form of oppressive and authoritarian government. Bakunin explained that very well, here are some quotes from his most notorious writtings:


    "The Marxists argue that the dictatorship alone - their dictatorship, of course - would express the popular will. Our answer is this: no dictatorship has no objective other than its own perpetuation, and it can only lead slavery of the people the tolerant, freedom can only result in freedom, ie of the rebellion of the working people and their freedom to organize. "
    Bakunin
    "(...) So, no state, whether that be democratic forms, even the reddest republic, popular only in the sense of the lie known representation of the people, is able to give the it what it needs, that is to say, the freedom to organize its own interests, from bottom to top without any interference, restraint or supervision from above, because every state, even the Republican and the more democratic, even as popular pseudo-state envisioned by Mr. Marx, is not something that the government of the masses up and down by a few learned and even preferred, supposedly better understanding of the real interests of the people that the people themselves. "
    Bakunin
    "There will be a government overly complicated, which will not only govern and administer the masses politically, (...) but still administer them economically, concentrating in its hands the production and fair distribution of wealth, the cultivation of land, establishment and development of factories, the organization and direction of trade, and finally the application of capital to production by one banker, the State. All this will require an immense knowledge and many heads overflowing with brains in this government. This will be the reign of scientific intelligence, the most aristocratic, the most despotic, the most arrogant and most contemptuous of all regimes "
    Bakunin


    ----

    "According to Bakunin, that insofar as there is in fact a seizure of power centralized in a minority, on behalf of the working class that criticism of authoritarian communism is valid. It is recommended that Bakunin collective exercise of social power and decentralized by the mass of working people. "

    "Marx did not have a sense of freedom from foot to head is an authoritarian. "
    - Bakunin


    "I hate communism [authoritarian], because it is the negation of freedom and I can not conceive anything without human liberty. I am not a communist because communism concentrates and is absorbing all the powers of the corporation in the State because it inevitably leads to centralization of ownership in the hands of the state. [...] I want the organization of society and social or collective ownership is low up by means of free association, not the top down by means of any authority whatsoever. It is in this sense I am a collectivist and not communist "
    - Bakunin, end September 1868

    "Claiming that a group of individuals, even the most intelligent and best-intentioned, will be able to become thinking, the soul, the directing and unifying will of the revolutionary movement and the economic organization of the proletariat roof countries is such a heresy against common sense and covers the historical experience, we wonder in amazement how a man as intelligent as Marx could conceive "
    - Bakunin, October 5, 1872

    "We do not accept even as a revolutionary transition, or national conventions, nor the Constituent Assembly, nor the interim government nor the so-called revolutionary dictatorships; pair we are convinced that the revolution when [...] is concentrated in the hands of a few individuals rulers, inevitably and immediately becomes reaction. "
    - Bakunin, October 5, 1872

    "If the proletariat becomes the ruling class, who do we ask, does it dominate? (...) Who says State necessarily says domination and, therefore, slavery. (...) By any measure is Instead, you get the same result execrable government of the vast majority of the masses by a privileged minority, but this minority, the Marxists say, will consist of workers. Ont, admittedly, old workers, but, soon they will become leaders, will cease to be workers and will begin to see the world from the top of the proletarian state will no longer represent the people but themselves and their claim to govern '
    - Bakunin, 1873

    "The Marxists find solace in the idea that this dictatorship will be temporary and of short duration. They argued that the state yoke that dictatorship is a transitional stage necessary to achieve the total emancipation of the people, anarchy, or freedom being the goal, the state or dictatorship means. So to free the masses, we must begin by enslaving. (...) To this we reply that no dictatorship can have no other purpose than last as long as possible "
    - Bakunin



    (sorry, translated from french with google)



    All of the notorious anarchists also disliked Marx very much. Beside the class analys and the capitalism critique, there is not really any common point between anarchists and marxists. You can see this division very well in the commune of paris and the first international, where the anarchists opposed their projects against marxists views and where marxist communist was highly critized by peoples like Bakunin, Joseph Dejacques (who represented the anarchist side in the first international and who critized marxism authoritarism a lot), and even Proudhon critized Marx.

    Anarcho-communism have nothing to do with marxism, even Kropotkin who is behind anarcho-communism wasn't a fan of Marx, he barely read marxist theories and that's why joseph stalin accused him of not understanding communism...
     
  12. xOutspokenx

    xOutspokenx Active Member Forum Member


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    Well, I disagree with this.

    Marxist theory was very much anti-authoritarian when it came to the final stage of the 'social revolution'. As a matter of fact, when one reads Marx on the issue of the end goal of the revolution and the final stage of the social revolution, the picture he gives is not that much different from libertarian communism.

    The problem with Marxist theory, which is also the point of Bakunin, is the means in which this 'perfect society' is reached. Bakunin and Marx simply had a ajor disagreement on how this perfect society was to be achieved, with Marx arguing for an intermediate state (the much dreaded dictatorship of the proletariat) and Bakunin arguing for a change from the bottom up. But as far as I am aware, Bakunin and Marx had very similar ideas on what the 'perfect society' would look like and to the best of my memory Marx made no mention of any form of organised or centralised state for the communist society.

    I don't have any greviances or major disagreements with Marxist theory when it comes to the final stage of the evolution towards the 'perfect society', my only problem if with the authoritarian nature of the dictatorship of the proletariat and how this would be self-perpetuating. Which is why I consider myself a libertarian communist.
     
  13. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ungovernable:

    Bakunin definitely has some points there.
    But i don't see how Marx theory can be authoritarian, when ALL is equal? When there is only working class, since the workers together own the resources for their production, then a dictatorship of the workers means equality? That is the end goal.
    Or have i misunderstood something?
    As far as i'm concerned, the major differences is in the way to achieve this goal.

    I've been reading a lot of Karl Marx these past weeks. Yes, the man definitely wasn't anarchist, and i don't all agree, but Marx never mentioned the strong dictatorship state, that we see in Leninism and Stalinism. He mentioned that the proletariat is to take control - either trough parlaments in unions and parties, or trough revolution (Marx wasn't against a bloody revolution) - BOTH of these would be against the anarchist's idea's, since it is oppressing, to all those who don't agree or aren't working class.

    Well, Marx disliked anarchist's - which in my eyes was foolish, since i believe anarcho-communism is more realistic than communism (it's easier to achieve the main goal of equality).

    One of the quotes puzzles me:

    ""Claiming that a group of individuals, even the most intelligent and best-intentioned, will be able to become thinking, the soul, the directing and unifying will of the revolutionary movement and the economic organization of the proletariat roof countries is such a heresy against common sense and covers the historical experience, we wonder in amazement how a man as intelligent as Marx could conceive "
    - Bakunin, October 5, 1872"

    I think i got the meaning lost in translation here, but it sounds exciting, so i would like an explanation or such?
     
  14. Robino

    Robino Member Forum Member


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    There is no government in communism (except leninsm,stalinism,maoism etc)...
    Its the phase after capitalism (according to Marx) and it refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society and allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process.

    And anarcho-communists dont believe in "communist parties" or reforms etc.
    We believe in revolution - and not take the power over the existing government.
    Thats more leninism/stalinism..
     
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Marxism is dictatorship of the proletariat, therefore the peoples in power would form the new upper class. That's not a classless society, and we could even say that it's not stateless because it forms a new worker's state.

    marxism is also communist party, the manifesto of the communist party was written by marx.


    the dictatorship of the proletariat exclude everyone who is not a worker so it is a dictatorship of a PART of the population and not everyone. And it's still dictatorship, which is synonymous of authoritarism.

    Bakunin also explained very well that the new "dictators of the proletariat" would become a new class and wouldn't be proletarians anymore. So it wouldn't be equality anymore since there would be a new ruler class..

    The final stage maybe, but like Bakunin said this final stage will never be reached because all dictatorship stays forever. And everyone who was inspired of marx became a full-time dictator and this society was never achieved. Only permanent dictatorship was achieved.

    But hey back2front, you believe that disinformation is called freedom of speech, so don't call it a problem.
     
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