peacefull revolution

right, but where do we draw the line? at what point do we stop being ourselves and start becoming like them, those we despise, when violence becomes our tool? power is both hard and soft, but i think soft power is the first step for hard power. if we don't recognize or respect the power, then it begins to lose the very thing it needs to be sustained. but when we attack the power outright, it only grows. violence furthers the causes of opposition, and the more opposed humans are with one another, then the easier it will be for a small number of people to take power and control the people. i could be wrong, but i still will strive for peace every time that it is possible.

 

my idea of anarchy is taking a shit down the lacerated and hemorrhagic esophagus of the usurper.
KILL OR BE KILLED.

 

Berkman quotes that a revolution will not be peaceful as the capitalists and aristocracy will do anything to protect their monopolies on business and wealth while maintaining the proleteriat as wage slaves. They will resort to violence in order to protect their interests. How do we gain a share of their wealth if they use violence against us to maintain it?

 

The philosophical side of this debate is rather pointless (is use of violence just or unjust), real talk, if you think you can just walk into a factory with 200 other workers and claim that it is now yours and you're going to run it in your interests, not for the boss, what do you think is going to happen? They're going to send the army or police in to remove you, and if you do it again, they will react the same way, and if you keep doing it, you will probably be killed eventually. And the reaction of most people won't be "what a brave and inspiring action, he died trying to make the world better", their reaction will be "I better not do what he did, it'll get me fucking killed".

If you think we can attain a classless and stateless society without the use of violence then you are ignoring history.

 

Agreed upon the point that isolated action achieves nothing, except inspiring legends of fallen working class heroes, but I still think a mass movement overtaking many or most of the factories would make a difference - too bad that we actually lack the mass basis.
And because they will not give up voluntary their privileged parasitism, we will have to show them the door - but I like to quote Durruti, who spend some time fighting at the Aragon Front in the Spanish Revolution:
Warfare makes beasts out of men - and we should keep that in mind, because I think we are no beasts, and we shouldn't risk to become beasts.

And it's really a thin line between being a revolutionary and becoming a rebel thug without any cause...
Individual violence against individuals - assassinations, executions, "terrorism" never achieved anything and will most likely develop it's own fucking self-reinforcing tendencies, examples in history: raf, eta, ira... lots of people died for nothing - and the attacked system still remains.
Except for the clandestine joy of some favorite zombie removed from the scene, nothing was ever achieved, only the next braindead career criminal steps up and fills the gap - business must go on.
It's getting harder and harder for them - endless economical crisis, endless warfare, class- and race tensions rising - the conflicts and contradictions of capitalism procreate discontent and growing resistance - everywhere. The funeral pile is already lighted, the only question is, how many are kindling the fire.

 

Of course this is the goal, anarchism is a mass movement. You can't have revolution in just one town or whatever. But the forces of state and capital will do everything possible to stop you, even if you took over every factory in your country at once, they would still keep fighting you.

 

and how, exactly, do we make anarchism a mass movement if most people are scared to fight the system?

and why the do we need their factories and their money? no construct of society is in my idea of anarchy. in fact, we don't live in a society at all, we live in individual cages where roaming is allowed- i'm not sure how else to describe it....anarchy in my opinion is the complete freedom of the mind. almost like tabula rasa, but with knowledge of past mistakes. when the mind is free, the body will follow.

however, that's my opinion, and opinions are like assholes. the reality is, everyone has their own way of seeing things....the only things we share in common with each other is our basic needs and our emotions. beliefs mean nothing. only actions count.

 

They already fight us, I don't need to give you the details I guess - so only the level of violence in the already ongoing struggle is making the difference - if they get more seriously threatened, they'll get more dangerous.
BUT: It's not only the liberation of the factories as the means of production and profit - it's also the liberation of the workers, their families, the unemployed and their families no longer pushed aside by working overtime and automatisation etc. - in short: the majority of the people takes action making a change.
The system will try to use cops and military to keep it down - to fight their own people, relatives, friends...
I think it won't work and it didn't worked in the October Revolution, the much weaker german council republic or the Spanish Revolution - because cops and soldiers are people too...
The counterrevolution will fight and I'm sure there will be more reactionary forces than comfortable - but against the majority of their own kind defending the freedom they achieved?

And because is a good description I'll use it - today the cages are still too comfortable for the inmates, but capitalisms seizures already spread unrest, misgivings, fear and little resistance. The ill- and madness of the system won't get better, they are sawing on the branch they are sitting on - capitalism eats itself - and their options to narcotisize and brainwash decrease - left on welfare and minimal wages, people start to feel the affliction they are forced to live in, part of this is canalised into nationalism and racism - the system always whistles for the fascists if the going gets rougher - but it won't help this time, the number of immigrants and outsiders everywhere is too great - and the only problem they have is to find a common cause.

Exactly would be too long (4 a.m...) so it's short: Organize in your neighborhood, get in touch with the people around you and start cooperating on projects with them. Join Food not Bombs, anti-war groups, cop-watch, make zines, support Anarcho-Punk and your local anarchist(s), join protests, collectives - become part of the counter society/culture.
Little sparks spreading knowledge, information, future perspectives and the resolve to make the change will become very useful if more people start to look for an alternative to capitalism. The main purpose of the individual cage is to keep people separated and isolated. Isolation is scary, especially if enforced with black armoured clone cops - but to face them in numbers...

 

Because there are 7 Mrd. of people to be fed, and most of them still have to live without their part of the blessings of modern science - medicine, mass communication, proper housing - I don't want to continue with capitalist production, but we will need time for the conversion and betterment of necessary industries. Technological progress is a chance we should not miss, we will need it to deal with the less fortunate legacies of today - nuclear power plants, ABC-weapons will not dissolve into thin air...

 

Agreed. Which is why we have to defend ourselves and any gains that we make.

I'm not sure what you mean, all those revolutions ultimately failed. I'm not super familiar with the 1919 revolution in germany (thats the one you're talking about right?) and I know in the october revolution that there were mass desertions from the military into the ranks of revolutionaries, but in spain, the army remained almost completely intact and (alongside the church) was the main source of counter-revolution. The police also remained intact, and the guardia civil, who were infamous for torturing leftists were renamed the gaurdia asalto and the stalinists used them to attack/arrest anarchists, which they were all to happy to do.

 

Okay, these revolutions failed - finally, but the first stage was successful - the overthrowing of the instabil old order and the development of a new one created by the people. The sovjets developed well but were messed up by the bolsheviks, arriving late and jumping on the already rolling train.
the german revolution (Räterepublik) was really successful only in munich and berlin, soldiers of the dissolving army played an important role, but the movement was too isolated and quenched by a coalition of right social democrats, nationalists and pre-nazis, their tool were the so-called "freikorps" - ex-soldiers of the imperial army and ultra-conservative militias mostly under monarchist influence.
But in Spain large parts of the army, the guardia civil and the gardia di asalto - which was created by the republic - stood loyal and against the rebelling military, in Barcelona the guardia leader escofet refused to disarm or fight the revolution, because so many of his men fought on the side of republicans and anarchists.
Later, with the restauration of the republican state under stalinist control they turned again against the revolution, but mola and later franco had only the african troops and the falange/the carlists avaliable, without the support of the fascist italians and nazi-germans hardly enough to overcome the resistance against them.
I agree with Vassil that the important aspect is the dissolution/disintegration of the army and the police - ordered to fight against their own people they become unreliable for the system, vulnerable to desertion and so less threatening to the revolution - so the only good cop is a deserting/defecting cop...

 

this turned out to be a pretty dope thread...thanks for the input gobbledigooks and vassily. i'm always trying to get involved, just gets pretty hard sometimes. the fight for anarchy is not easy by any means....

 

I dont think anybody thinks "mass rioting" makes revolution. How are comutper nerds supposed to defend a revolutionary community from an advancing force of a professional army/police/private military contractors?

Revolutions aren't made through violence, but they usually have to be defended through violence.

 

Computer nerds manufacture the explosives durrrrrrrr

On that note, theirs a difference between senseless violence such as killing for no reason and mass insurrection.
Violence doesn't necessarily mean killing maiming and slaughtering, any kind of aggressive behavior is violent behavior and since the goal of people on this forum is to take down the state, that in itself is inherently violent. You wont get anywhere putting flowers in peoples faces, AK47's on the other hand

 

Putting flowerz in AK47's? For camouflage perhaps...

Personally I would call it "mass direct action", not necessarily violent against humans, but definitely against institutions and installions of the state. Official buildings, cop stations, barrack areas, military bases must be occupied and secured, communication facilities too - and without their toys and lackeys the former government might apply for asyl in a collective of their choice - if there is anyone willing to take them in, I don't care.
Revolution is not just "rioting" - living out anger, hate and frustration, exchanging (un)pleasantries with the cops and finally go home and do business as usual.
Revolution is a fundamental change, the majority of the oppressed standing up against their oppressors with the declared aim to abolish the repressive system and take matters in their own hands.
I guess we will agree that "they" will not leave voluntarily - and if you call violence against the system "silly", littlebro, what do you call the systems daily endeavours to keep us down?
Just try to imagine what they are able and willing to do if they are finally cornered - offer the other cheek to anti-personal bombs, napalm and automatic weapons in the hands of 19 year old kids, following orders from desperate pigs in bunkers?

... against the states violent struggle to survive.
Virtual revolutions are more easily quenched - just push the "off" buttons - will the nerds then take to the street?

 

Put an AK47 in someones face? - at least it's unfriendly to do so, and think about the mess 7.62 mm does...

Do the geeks still know the difference between virtual and real world? Good old whitehat hacking wormed a few interesting leaks in the states database, but never crippled anything important much less than it prevented anything repressive from happening, no plan for an invasion, important cops raid or secret service action saw the light of the public before it was already too late. They practically own the circus - so they can well afford it if someone would be juggling with a few trinkets - and what would that change anyhow? Money is not necessary to break a general strike, blockade or mass protest - violence by police and military are necessary to keep people down. So we have to meet them on their terms and we better realize that nothing else will work, especially not the liberal illusions of any kind of evolutionary change.
Violence isn't "silly" - it's just a dangerous tool we should use with care and patience to prevent killing and destruction for no reason, to keep being human - because thats what I want to be.
And I will fucking defend this, at least after my liberation, by any means necessary - so it's the systems choice for what kind of trouble they ask if they dare to take it away from me.

 

Most of the people I know don't trust the state anymore, they feel endangered by the rising level of social insecurity, high costs of living conflicting with declining wages, chronical unemployment, some complain about the lack of perspectives beside consumerism and life style on credit - all the while politicians play their little games in berlin, barely recognizable from each other, exchangeable in their eagerness to serve their career - but nobody else. The rising "staatsverdrossenheit" (general disaffection with the state) is an often used phrase, the rate of participation in election is around 65 % and falling - not much love lost anymore.
And still they seek to save themselves as much as possible for their little private heaven - somebody wrote before: The individual cages are still too comfortable to revolt against the keepers of the keys - so everydays frustration, fear and trouble is compensated with the little blessings of modern life.
But I think it's only a matter of time that this already weak and vulnerable soap bubble is collapsing, the state can't afford capitalism and it's parasitic contradictions anymore - so the seduced class struggle gets more and more openly fought - the system gets more and more repressive - guess what's the end?
I agree completely with you, littlebro, the net is an important tool to spread information and we should use it as much as we can - including facebook and all the other communities - ringing the bells doesn't hurt and might wake them up a little sooner - better soon than too late to minimize the damage ol'earth has to take.
So welcome in the club, and btw: It's not all about violence, resistance and revolution is about social defence too, in opposition to the suicidal system we always have the choice how to answer it's terms.
Some Castor-comittee is working on a general analysis of the completely non-violent action at the blockade a few weeks ago - and the cops desperate attempts to provoke unnecessary fighting, it's almost funny to read.

 

You are might think that's strange but in Portugal in 20 April of 1974 , the day of the revolution , when the fascist government felt down. The soldiers used flowers on the machine guns , in this revolution no one has got killed