Loading...
Welcome to Anarcho-Punk.net community ! Please register or login to participate in the forums.   Ⓐ//Ⓔ

Money in anarchy?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Tomaks, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. sludgefuck

    sludgefuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    225

    0

    4

    Oct 18, 2010
     
    Dude, it is totally easier to fight corruption in government than dismantle society and start again from scratch. And it's not just about changing political leaders. It has nothing to do with political leaders, as a matter of fact. It's about changing the people. Because it's not the politicians fault he's in a position of tyrannical power, it's the people's for allowing it to happen. If we can make change on the most basic level in people's lives, the collective awareness becomes that much sharper and we get another inch closer to a just society. I'm talking about cultural reform. People have been brainwashed into believing that everything is fine, so if we can at least get people to start asking questions, we've already won half the battle.

    And the point in having money even though there is no property is just the reward system. It's not about HAVING things it's about accomplishing what you want to accomplish based on what you've earned. Money when used properly offers an expansion in a person's personal freedom.
     
  2. snookams

    snookamsExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    438

    0

    4

    Feb 7, 2010
     
    some good points there sludge. but here's a counterpoint; people who know their lives suck. poor farmers in Afghanistan growing poppies instead of food because they need the money to survive. working class in China making shoes for next to pennies a day. money isn't the answer to problems. the root of the problems isn't even poverty-- its sustainability. fresh food, water, clothing, medicine fuel, and equal rights for all people regardless of color, class or creed. of course things like religion and capitalism fuck this up...so that's where you have a very good point. it's about cultural reform, and, in my opinion, education, in order to establish said sustainability. the next question is how these things are provided. money is simply a way of exploiting people for their work; on off-shoot of slavery or serfdom. i believe the people can provide the things they need (or want, whatever) without money, but it will take alot of work and reversal of inate corruption in the current systems we have. but i'm sure everyone here already knows this, i'm just trying to make a point. and i'm not trying to argue either, i agree with you guys. so personal freedom and necessary survival can be established without money, i'd say. there's alot of holes in my point, so feel free to point them out.
     
  3. linkthesecond

    linkthesecondNew Member New Member


    3

    0

    1

    Aug 18, 2010
     

    Yeah , but well , again , how can you earn anything .Because , in anarchy you don't need to earn things .
    All is free after all . And so money is no reward any more . You do things because you know they're the right things to do .
    This is obviously an utopia , but well, that's what I meant with education .
    At least , this is why I appreciate the anarchy as a way of thinking .
     
  4. sludgefuck

    sludgefuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    225

    0

    4

    Oct 18, 2010
     
    Are you gonna tell me everything is going to be free in your idea of anarchism? :ecouteurs:
     
  5. JackNegativity

    JackNegativityExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    885

    1

    28

    Nov 9, 2010
     
    I'm sure it's been said (maybe even to death...I'm not reading back through 3 pages of replies), but money will only lead to hoarding, greed, inequality and ultimately back to where we started. What if somebody is disabled? Sure they're entitled to the necessities (food/water/clothing/shelter/power/medicine). But if they can't work and earn "reward" money are they not entitled to say, a computer or furniture or something? If certain jobs require a certain special skill, would the people with that skill earn more than average people, thus having more wealth? Wouldn't that create classes?


    You can call it a "reward" or give it any other name you want but it still seems like exploitation. How is having to earn money to expand your freedom, freedom at all? There is no expanding freedom, either you have it or you don't. It's just sounds like capitalism, though less extreme than what we have going on now. What am I missing?

    I'm not attacking anyone's point of view or anything, so please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to understand the point of money in an anarchist (or anarcho-communist) society.
     
  6. sludgefuck

    sludgefuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    225

    0

    4

    Oct 18, 2010
     
    perhaps it would be a good idea to read the discussion as to prevent people from having to repeat themselves. There's been a lot of good points made by several posters. Not tryna be a dick.

    To people criticizing money: equating money with greed is like equating guns with death. And we all know why that's bullshit.

    Tell me, do you value your current quality of life? Realize that everything you have is the result of money, and without it you would have nothing. Because some of you are too lazy to read I'll say it again: there is nothing wrong with money. It's application in a corrupt government is the cause of the problem. Try to come up with a realistic unexploitable alternative. It simply can't be done and if someone can I'd actually be pretty happy to hear it.

    And on your point on disability: Depends on the disability. People who are disabled can also be employed. And if their disability is such that prevents them from being employed, well then the limitation lies in their disability rather than money.

    And you are totally misinterpreting my point about money offering an expansion into freedom. I'm not saying people are enslaved or something and money is the only thing that gets you out. No shit everybody should be free. I'm saying money allows you to accomplish things of your personal desire that are not necessities. You want the government to pay for everything you want to do and have?

    On class: Class is something that's cultural. No matter how utopian your society is, class will always exist, the only thing that's going to change is the lines that draw them. If you remove the ability to amass power from wealth then there's no harm in someone making more money than someone else.

    Some of you are putting entirely too much blind faith on an ideology that works better on paper when applied literally. There has to be some compromises somewhere for it to hold up as an effective system of power.
     
  7. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    951

    0

    0

    Feb 21, 2010
     
    I think I got your point sludge, what you are trying to say is that we should use money until people are aware that they can live without it ? I mean, you said you want some reforms, and you want money to be "reward". "If we can make change on the most basic level in people's lives, the collective awareness becomes that much sharper and we get another inch closer to a just society". If we could make this happen, if people could start to realize the problems, and if they start to question their government, there will be some reforms. So, after they "culturize" and educate, they will be able to lvl-up on next stage of human life - solidarity. Too many people don't know the meaning of this word. I think our job, for now, is just to show people how things works, and if they accept our opinions that would be great. I kinda agree with you sludge, but I think when the time comes we should get rid of money, just to avoid future problems, and yes we can live without it - bartering is easier way, in my opinion ( It wouldn't bring us down to ancient greece, becouse I think we can make "modern bartering" posibble.)
     
  8. sludgefuck

    sludgefuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    225

    0

    4

    Oct 18, 2010
     
    Enlighten me on how a modern bartering transaction would happen. Because in my head I picture a butcher wanting to buy a computer, but the computer guy is a vegetarian.... There is such a vast variety of goods and services in the modern world I don't know how you could possibly see it is a viable option for trade.

    Your resistance to money is because you keep connecting it in your mind with greed and capitalism. But I'm telling you money does not necessarily have to be synonymous with these things. It can be and is a great invention.
     
  9. DisorderlyCitizen

    DisorderlyCitizenActive Member Forum Member


    35

    0

    0

    Jan 19, 2011
     
    i realize that it's impossible to get rid of money in one day. but again, if people would be ready for it, material possessions will have no more value for them. if everyone would act in the interest of others and not themselves, i think then and only then we can achieve this.people just need examples, other people that show them that it is possible. so we need to inch our way towards this goal. it might sound utopian today, but i think a life without money will be possible if people are ready to give up most of what they are used to.

    edit: bartering would bring it's problems, but it's also a possibility that, let's stay at your example, the computer guy just gives the butcher a computer, without asking for anything in return. or he would find another guy who has a computer and eats meat. there are many solutions to this problem imho.
     
  10. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    951

    0

    0

    Feb 21, 2010
     
    Bartering isn't the problem, the people are. People are not used to work for themselves. In my opinion, everyone should be able to make his own food (if not, they would trade for it. Food isn't a problem.), and water would be like today, but with no fee ( I think every family would get limited water service, depending on number of family members). We will use bartering for other things such as gadgets, fridges, cars ( 'bout cars, planes, boats...I don't think there will be any, public transport is enough. And if you're traveling you'll use planes or trains.). So about bartering, anarcho-society will be like a group of people (today = city), everyone will do something, computers, fridges, cars...Now, possesion of these thing will be worthless becouse everything is everyones (don't get me wrong). So, example : In one group mentioned before, there will be lets say 100 people (just an example, there would be much more). Ok, I'll make 10 computers with my group of 5 people (we'll get matirials from 3 people who are experts in making computer parts, so 3 computers will be given to them - if they already have one, they will rewarded with something else, more food or something - but it's not important). So, I'll give my 10 computers to random people, and they will give us what we need. If they don't have anything we need, we'll give them for free. Why ? Becouse it's worthless. I know it sounds stupid, but people should appriciate work, and others. It's a community. It's hard to tell opinions over the internet :/


    edit : Also, money makes us worried. Look at the common family. Mum & Dad are working, are well paid. What's the only thing they want? more money. If I had money, I would bla bla. So, money makes us feel worried about future. I know it's connected to capitalism, but again..
     
  11. snookams

    snookamsExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    438

    0

    4

    Feb 7, 2010
     
    i'm sorry, but fuck money. all together. make something else work...use your goddamn imagination and junk
     
  12. Random Person From There

    Random Person From ThereExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    115

    0

    0

    Aug 27, 2010
     


    Long discussion which I currently do not have the time to reply in full, but I will try to. I'm an Anarcho-Communist following Kropotkin's economical system: the Communal Storage, the literal sense of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" of Karl Marx. Kropotkin's views are pointed out in his book "The Conquest of Bread" and here's the topic in question of Labor Notes which is, as claimed by Collectivists and some Unionists, better than money since it is derived from actual work and cannot be amassed by rearing it off in a bourgeois chair. http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_ar ... /ch13.html



    Read that, then continue to post. The full book if need be can be found on: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_ar ... t/toc.html which I do recommend you read it. Money is hordeable, money is the reason why there are two classes: those who have and those who have not. Money will always lead to corruption, exploitation, and social and economical hierarchy as is seen in this society which is State Capitalism and even in the Laissez-Faire Free Market. With the existence of money there will be theft and poverty. Theft is quite apparent really and needs no explanation unless you lack any coherent logic, those of need will resort to any and all means to earn their "right to live". Their right to live in a Capitalist society would be the accessibility and availability of money that belong to an individual, and the ever extent need of obtaining more to buy more and reach higher social statuses, as you know that most if not all politicians and men of power are men of nobility or privilege, they're bourgeois who have bought all they need and thus need some place to vent and prove their worth (parliaments). Then we reach the topic of poverty. The only way I know of that can be made possible and the most humane would be Anarchist-Communism as outlined by Kropotkin, the well-being of all instead of the well-being for a minority and the lack of for a majority. Poverty would be non-existent in the sense that you cannot buy the bare necessities and those of the 1st category given by Adam Smith which are: Food, Clothing, and Shelter. To believe that people currently have these would be sheer ignorant and stupidity, to ignore it would be pure ignorance and stupid. Either way you would be a fool to believe so. You cannot supply the masses with food, clothing, and shelter when they do not have the means and ability (money) to obtain such crucial essentials and basics to life. When Anarchist-Communism is achieved, these bare necessities would be provided on only one sensible and logical condition: that you do your part in aiding the society through work. Food will be provided free of charge, there would be no money after all. That is called the right to live, and followed by the right to well-beign and said by Kropotkin. To think that money can actually end world hunger, wars, environmental destruction, waste of human energy and time, needless deaths, poverty, exploitation, classes in the sense of workers and slackers (employers), and be not only good but to think that is working or helpful would be complete nonesense. Money with its accumulation breeds social nad economical superiority over those who own less, labor notes are a step forward but in now way an actual solution it is but a mere remedy, a reform if we may say so.

    As long as there is money and wealth there will still be those in need and thus poverty and exploitation, workers ready to work for petty low sums in order to buy their daily bread and needs otherwise they would either die of hunger or live on the streets, and we do not want that in an Anarchist society do we? Now you could say it is not money that is the problem but the way it is distributed, well then Kropotkin deals with that in a chapter of his book that I linked you to. Distribution is based on "wound first, heal later" and these take the form of charities, welfare, and social services. They do not cure this ailment known as Capitlism, they merely postpone or dilute its toxicity. That would be the same as replacing one type of cancer for another. We want a permanent solution, and that involves the abolishment of money and monetary currency. No, we do not want to replace them with another form of market, not even barter. We want the goods and means to be freely available to all on condition that they themselves also contribute in turn. It would be something along the lines of "You can help yourself to our bread, water, clothing, homes, laboratories, railways, airplanes, and the many many services that we offer but only if you contribute however you wish and is considered helpful". You claim a very false strawman that money does not equate social hierarchy and thus does not produce power just as guns do not result in deaths. Money is the means of producing such economical and social difference between the rich and the poor, the rich would as is known own more than the poor and ergo have the needy who will do ANYTHING in order to fulfill basic needs as seen throughout history and we'll reach point one all over again. We would ahve changed nothing nor would we have relieved anything when one person is able to stack and horde such currency that can get him all items of luxury, with the items of luxury in his grasp he will be looked up to and feared since he will be able to bribe and coerce all who he wants since he has what others need and do not possess. It's a pretty fallible and will not suit the interests of the majority, even Laissez-Faire Capitalism is expected to take decades even centuries to even start noticing some positive changes in the world, and that is after the exploitation of the First-World countries and the move to Second and Third has occurred where wages could be increased due to competition if we are optimistic, and decreased if we take it cynically. Read Kropotkin's book.

    That is the mere basics, I could go more in-depth if need be.
     
  13. DisorderlyCitizen

    DisorderlyCitizenActive Member Forum Member


    35

    0

    0

    Jan 19, 2011
     
    you speak me from the heart bakica ;)
     
  14. sludgefuck

    sludgefuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    225

    0

    4

    Oct 18, 2010
     
    There are a few gigantic holes in your logic:

    Firstly that article was bullshit. It was totally irrelevant. It's calling for money to be abolished by postulating it's inefficiency in a capitalist society. Not only that but it's calling for everyone to be paid exactly the same. Janitor makes the same as Doctor. Fucking bullshit. So your basis for argument is already flawed.

    I would really advise that you read what I wrote because I've already answered this shit. Because you're arguing under the assumption that I supporting a capitalist system. I am talking about a heavily reformed system where the only boundaries are what you set for yourself.

    You are completely wrong. If we eliminate private property, explain to me EXACTLY how a person with more money exerts dominance over someone who makes less? I'd really like to hear it because a few of ya have been going on about this but I haven't seen any examples. Someone with a lot of money who wouldn't be able to transfer it to power would just be sitting in a room with a pile of coins. No big deal. How does a person with luxury buy power? You are equating money with capitalism which is stupid because it's wrong. Not opinion, just flat out propaganda.

    MONEY is not the cause of theft. POVERTY is the cause of theft. Lack of MONEY is not the cause of POVERTY, being unable to provide for oneself is the cause of poverty, which in turn creates crime. The root of the problem is lack of opportunity. So instead of getting rid of one of the most useful inventions ever, I would think it would be a lot easier for an anarcho society to secure EMPLOYMENT AND EDUCATION OPPORTUNITIES. If we can do that (not very hard) then you eliminate the basis of poverty and anyone who continues to be poor after that you know 100% for a fact is of their own doing. No excuses in a society where no matter who you are, you can find a job that pays you an actual living wage.

    I don't believe food should be free either (causes more problems than you think). I believe education and healthcare should be free, and that's enough for people to get their shit together. You have no argument . You talk about provisions as if it's the only necessity. You have to look at things from a modern perspective. Labor notes (ESPECIALLY when defined by the article you sent me. I had more faith in it before I read it) are so inefficient and much more likely to be exploited than money.

    Ironically, the system you're describing is much more of an impairment on people's rights than capitalism. THIS bullshit is what's creating boundaries and limitations on the people's freedom. I don't think you understand the difference between reality and fantasty. Sure, in fantasy everything works out just great because all the pieces fall into place. But in REALITY, people don't always fit your formula and they desire to go beyond the very short limits you've set for them.
     
  15. snookams

    snookamsExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    438

    0

    4

    Feb 7, 2010
     
    there are over 6 billion realities on this planet
     
  16. DisorderlyCitizen

    DisorderlyCitizenActive Member Forum Member


    35

    0

    0

    Jan 19, 2011
     
    @sludge dude, i think what you're saying would also work. i don't oppose it or anything, but i think that if people REALLY want it, they can achieve a world without money. you may think that it's fantasy, and maybe it is who knows, but i believe in it and have faith that it will happen someday if we can get more people to join our cause.
     
  17. sludgefuck

    sludgefuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    225

    0

    4

    Oct 18, 2010
     
    no there's not

    You're not getting my point at all. The point is there is no REASON to get rid of money. It only creates complications which you may have the POSSIBILITY of overcoming, but why would you go to all the trouble to create an unaccountable potentially dangerous system instead of using something practical like money? I'll tell you why. Because you're brainwashed. You're an anarchist so you must believe that money is evil. No exceptions. This type of inside the box thinking is poison and I get really frustrated when I see this shit happen all the time on APN. That whole paragraph wasn't directed at you specifically, it's for everyone who still refuses to concede without logical basis.
     
  18. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    951

    0

    0

    Feb 21, 2010
     
    Heathcare and education should be free, so doctors would work for free but you said "Janitor makes the same as Doctor. Fucking bullshit." - that doctor should earn something. How is that possible ? Then, we could keep money, I'm aware of what you are saying, and I agree with that - never thought about that in that way. But, as I said before - it's going to be hard for people do adjust in a new society, system with money in which it doesn't mean anything (compared with today). It's hard to change their views on money, and how it's controling. The ones that were poor will still hate it and won't probably accept your reforms. Why ? Simply, they won't belive you, as they don't belive todays capitalists. You said we should educate people - well I think it's easier to get rid of money (most of people hate it) then to tell people the real meaning of money.
    It's not THAT hard to achive anarchy or new society (it just takes long) but it's hard to keep it peacful. It's hard to conrol it when you're not doing it alone, you're doing it with 5 bilion people who have diffrent opinions. I think we should concentrate on educating people, making them more prepared and better persons then arguing about future. Why ? Becouse it's not going to be decided now, and we're not going to decide it. Was thinking about this, and maybe, just maybe, there could be communities with money & without (same for technology and stuff), if you know what I mean. I think anarchy isn't about theroy, it's about compromise - we both win. My friends always ask me - and what will happen when anarchy comes ? Well, nothing really. We'll live our lifes free. They expect me to tell them how the "system" would work. Fuck that. I can't tell you that, but what I can tell you is that you'll be free. And just imagine, freedom. It is like fantasy, maybe we're all living in fantasy. Freedom of CHOICE.

    Just want to end this, becouse it's starting to look like row.
     
  19. DirtyRottenThrashPunk

    DirtyRottenThrashPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    450

    0

    5

    Nov 11, 2010
     
    I must say I agree with a lot of what sludgefuck is saying in here...I see no problem with keeping money, just make sure the essentials are provided and free, and don't allow bullshit like big business to exist. Let people have money to buy computers and CD's and instruments and whatever else (those are just the main things I'm likely to buy, other then the band shirts/patches which most of my money goes to)...I also think the amount of money you can earn per year should be limited though, to even out how much everyone has.
     
  20. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    951

    0

    0

    Feb 21, 2010
     
    Well, that's not freedom ! You can't say it is. If someone has worked 15 hours / day, then he deserves more. And then it will come to - classes.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Money anarchyForumDate
Razgruha - Money Power Greed (2017)International anarcho-punk downloadsJan 20, 2018
Giving money to EZLN & Zapatistas ! (No-Gods-No-Masters.com announcement)General DiscussionJan 6, 2014
Cress - The Greed Machine And The Money Tree [APN]Anarcho-Punk music albums downloadsJul 10, 2013
Conflict - 1987 - Turning Rebellion Into Money (Lp, Live) [APN]Anarcho-Punk music albums downloadsJul 10, 2013
Antischism - 1988 - All Their Money Stinks Of Death (Incomplete) [APN]Anarcho-Punk music albums downloadsJul 10, 2013