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Middle Eastern Revolutions!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SurgeryXdisaster, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 11, 2011
     Mexico
    Egypt orders to arrest 22 “black bloc” members over terrorism

    April 18, 2013

    CAIRO, April 17 — Egypt’s prosecution on Wednesday ordered arrest warrant and travel ban against 22 members affiliated to “black bloc” group over terrorist crimes, official news agency MENA reported.

    A report from national security authority said the 22 people were accused of establishing a group to commit terrorism, violence, robbery along with damaging the public and private properties and intimidating citizens, MENA quoted prosecution spokesman Mahmoud al-Hifnawi as saying.

    The prosecution also ordered to ban them from travel.

    Recently, a new anarchist group along with other undeclared youth groups dubbed as “black bloc,” is getting addicted to vandalism to express their opinions, press the government to respond to their demands, while claiming that they are protecting protesters against the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) and security forces ‘ oppressing practices.

    The group, masked and dressed in black from head to toe, made its first appearance in the second anniversary of the Jan. 25 unrest by setting ablaze four buses belonging to the MB near the iconic Tahrir Square in the capital Cairo.

    Source: http://www.nzweek.com/world/egypt-order ... ism-60307/
     
  2. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jul 21, 2012
     
    Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    as demonstrators began to protest against morsi the situation was so tense that the military was sent out to fight the demonstrators,

    now the military has chosen to take over the leadership of the country....


    this is an example of all the protesters against the islamic regime


    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2RG8ud9A44[/video]
     
  3. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jul 21, 2012
     
    Re: Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    update:

    As many of the protestors are celebrating that morsi lost his power, many of the protesters says that this isn't the military who has taken power but the people itself, is this blind ignorance or is this the truth? :| ...
     
  4. bcpunk

    bcpunkActive Member Forum Member


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    Jul 2, 2013
     
    Re: Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    Well, i would be happier if it were the people, but Egypt has a long tradition of military coups. The revolution in 1952 produced Nasser.

    Maybe this time the egyptian people will not let the military to "hijack" the country.
    On the other hand I would welcome a coup in Zapatista fashion. Kicking out the government and giving the power to the people. :)
     
  5. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jul 21, 2012
     
    Re: Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    if it isn't just go "hijacked" by them in front of their faces--- :/
     
  6. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    Re: Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    according to my input on newspaper reports and the experience I gained in some visits of Cairo I would say,
    the military has taken over.
    despite the impressive success of the Tahir-movement some two years ago it was finally the military who forced Mubarak into withdrawal, the general staff was the state leadership for the transitional phase.
    after the first election the chief of staff (I forgot his name) stated that the military will watch & observe the presidential election as well as the president - the military wasn't really pleased with the success of the muslim brotherhood.
    the tensions grew during the last 3 months, finally Tahir was occupied again, the protests gained momentum. the HQ of the muslim brotherhood was stormed, looted and finally burned down.
    some days before the chief of staff declared an ultimatum, mursi should give in, mursi rejected the ultimatum - after it passed...

    of course the people and the ongoing protest was important and - if we like it or not - the people love the military since the general staff refused to beat down the Tahir-movement in the "first" revolt.
    so if some protester says "it's the people"s victory" it translates as the military and the people...
    it's an important step, but they still will have a long way to go.
     
  7. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jul 21, 2012
     
    Re: Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    i agree, but i am too scared to even think of the consequences of this...yeah mousi is gone...but what happens if the military decides take the power for themselves then egypt is going to end into a civil war and our comrades need all the solidarity and help they need!.
     
  8. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    Re: Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    I think it isn't scary at all, the egypt military is too smart to risk a military regime, they know that they have the respect of the people and they know that "to govern" them will destroy this respect, no possible government can solve the conflicts, every government must fail sooner or later.

    and there is not only the usual repression and capitalist exploitation we fight against, in the developed countries, egypt is a strategic area too, because of the suez-canal, her borders to isolated gaza & israel - if there would be a successful revolution (and they are far from being ready for this), the US, NATO ect. pp would make sure that the new "rogue state" wont last long.

    the first movement changed a lot, the actual second movement will change even more things, the egypt people learn by themselves that t h e y are the people and thus the base of everything.
    a revolutionary consciousness don't grows on a date palm, but in the minds of the people - and it needs time and experience to blossom, just compare them with the examples of revolutions in history - each success was only the last revolt in a long and bloody series of revolts...

    now they have peace and time to learn from their relative success, develop structures and perspectives how to organize, how to experiment with a free and viable alternative to the system that is repressing and abusing them. maybe the next government will not be that extreme, a bit smarter instead and it will last a bit longer, but now they have learned that there is nothing to expect from the religious ultras - they wanted them to leave, now they are gone. thats real progress and damned encouraging,
    it's their rate of tempo, taking step by step...
    I think we should be patient and support these people as much as we can, they have to find their own way, we can only assist them a little, fight our repression and it's organs repressing them, like the NATO, the foreign policy and so on - again, it's a long way to go.
    but it's promising!
     
  9. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Aug 21, 2009
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    Re: Egypts Military is on the rise with a military junta

    People who talk about military regime don't know shit of what they're talking about. After the revolution in 2011 the army took the power to kick out Mubarak, did it become a military regime ? No. They've given back the power after the elections.

    I am definetly against military regime and army but we can't seriously talk about a military regime. Considering the particuliar situation it didn't go *that* bad after military took power in 2011, so i don't think we're fearing anything.

    Anyway, there are millions of people out on the street right now. If the military keeps the power and turns egypt into a dictatorship, there will be another revolution.
     
  10. Fork Me

    Fork MeActive Member Forum Member


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    Jun 26, 2013
     Greece
    Whether we approve of military on general or not, the job of a military is (or should be) to protect the state. IMO, the state isn't the government it's all the people living there.

    Egypt had a democratic election, this was fought and won. Unfortunately the victors of that election went against the mandate they had been given, tried to change the constitution and tried to gradually enforce religious law on a country that has always been a secular state, with people of different religions living side by side. The people protested against this, spectactularly.

    This government, like the government they replaced tried to sent the military against the people to protect them. The military, instead, did what it had to do to protect the state, and temporaroly took over. It proected the people rather than the government. We've seen what can happen, especially in the Middle East and North Africa, when the military obey the governments and attack their own people. We saw it in Libya and we're still seeing in in Syria. Libya seems to be coming out the other side, but the cost was huge loss of life, Syria s now involved in a bloody civil war.

    The Army in Egypt may have just prevented this, and if they have then they've done their job, for now. The next stage of the job is to employ an interim goevernment so the people can try for democracy again, and hopefull vote in someone who will actually stick to demcoratic pronciples when they are elected.

    The interesting thing is that the solotion still seems to be democracy, what to genuine anarchists think of this?
     
  11. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jul 21, 2012
     
    the court of egypt has chosen to put the islamic brotherhood leaders into jail:

    The leader of the islamic brotherhood Mohamed Badie and the next in command of the brotherhood khairat el-shater has been thrown in jail by the egyptian authorities.
     
  12. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    big, b i g, BIG objection my friend! (just for the kidding!)
    do you remember the turkish troubles way back in the 80's? - then the "smart" alternative ca. 1991, when turkey came close to a religious gov in ankara? - I think it's very similiar to Cairo 2011 and today.

    in a period of crisis (germany 1933, spain 1936, greece 1946...) the military is a state within the state - ready to strike against the "traitors" - old government and people alike. the result is a military regime provoking constant resistance, even if the general staff is smart, most of their lackeys are not - that why the resistance never end but escalates. alternative:
    the turkish and egyptian military leaders then and today: both eyes on the helmsman, much closer to the crew than an admiral ever could be, so there's less trouble to get orders done, and if the ships course wents wrong:
    Z A P P - lets wear that admirals hat for a minute...

    the egyptian military knows like the turkish kameraden knew, that the country they "protect" is in dire need of modernisation and economic progress. backwardness in modern times results in social unrest.
    the military isn't that good at administration, but it's good at controlling an administration - see mursi.
    but I think that there is no doubt, that they would suppress the people if something gets wrong, the military leadership changes or the people demand their demobilisation in favor of something different.
    if the military would really protect the people, it would abolish the state and itself within a few moments.

    the dire mistake:
    lybia and syria aren't civil wars - they are pro-western proxy wars, organized, adviced, financed and armed by the US and european hardliners.
    we lost a very popular friend & anarchist & punk this year, he died in syria in a bombing (he wrote some time before on this very thread about his experiences in the area and his resulting positions).

    he was participating in a project giving support and direct help to victims of the war, assads men weren't that happy and limited their activity to areas strictly under military control, they had to accept a liaison officer to accompany them all around the clock - every breach of the order would result in arrestation and immediate expulsion from syria.
    the bombing was reported to have been happening in close proximity of a civil hospital, our friends were unloading food and medical supplies for the institution. 26 people died, around 70 were wounded - again, in a area controlled by the military. who is attacking a civil hospital and it's members - if the military has no reason to attack?
    a little bit someone mailed me this morning:
    http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/8423 - a "not known" member of the US-special forces dying in syria 2011?
    because the same story came up 2011 at occupy-actions in southern california when I and the person who mailed me the link were gaining first-hand experience with the 99%-happening in that area. the source isn't dubious or even close to conspiracy bullshit and german anti-imperialist sites offer a long list of similiar cases - evidence for something strange?

    some days ago a hardly known "comitee of the friends of syria" declared their support for arms delivery to the syrian "rebells" - much to the horror of the war fugitives we recieve here where I live, thousands meanwhile, mostly from the christian minority, school teachers, doctors, shopkeepers - who had no economic reason to seek shelter here.

    the same goes for lybia, there is a thread "rebels are winning in lybia" from two years ago and it deals quite well with the background of the western media propaganda. some of my friends plan to undertake a very similiar project like the above mentioned - this time in bengazi.
    trying to convince them about the kamikaze-character of the whole plan (they try to follow the example given by a now dead anarchist) I googled a bit while we were talking about it, this is what I found first:
    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/libya
    &
    http://accesslibya.org/wp/current-situation-in-libya/
    I wonder what you think of this.
     
  13. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Nov 13, 2009
     United States
    Annie my surprise at you posting that link was quite complete, Jay Polk was a person that I became good friends with and over the course of a few months during Occupy came to respect and love, we fed the homeless together many many days, I as part of FNB and he as part of the Occupy folks, he was a very kind and gentle person that had an astonishing amount of patience when it came to dealing with disruptive or intoxicated street people and the thing that won my heart over was that he always made sure to put a little food aside for me because I wouldn't eat if anyone was left without feeding. The story is true, he did die in Syria he didn't know he was going there until the last second. His wife and kids had an extreme hatred for the movement, I guess they felt Jay should spend every waking moment attending to their needs but he didn't see it that way, he felt he had had an awakening through Occupy and committed himself to it completely, he told me in confidence that he regretted joining the military and after his next and last deployment he would be separating permanently...the news of his death was horrible knowing what I did of who he was becoming...you say you were here during Occupy, was it in LA only?
     
  14. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    our hosts were in SD, we had a car and traveled a lot between there, LA. and San Capistrano. in the first days of occupy LA we spend some days&nights in succession in there, we were busking a lot, so we could afford it easily, but after the tempo slowed down, we went back to see what's going on in sd again.
    much later I remember some guys talking about j.p. in LA again, taking him as kind a hero to be promoted for the "movement" like this iraque-veteran who was shot in the head with a riot gun in new york- I don't remember the name at the moment.
    I found the mere idea somehow odd, thats why I remember j.p., I never met him in person and I don't remember that the place of his death were mentioned, "in war" would allow the assumption "in iraque" I guess, but again, I don't really remember this specific detail.

    I never got "into" occupy, in LA they had some reservations against punks, leathers ect., some "romantic" trouble too, some people were open to talk, some not if one would not agree...
    from our view the movement wasn't very promising, too much show, barely specific perspectives, too much squinting for good media-PR - but we just wanted to see what's going on and where it would end.

    the person sending me the link claims to have some more background information, (s)he's an anti-imp collecting proved evidence and facts - so we can't say anything about j.p.
    except for:
    the name is in two versions connected with a dead special forces soldier in syria, the corps and the army still denies that the person j.p. was a soldier at the date of the death - or:
    they say that he was a soldier, but was removed from service for not mentioned reasons some years ago.
    so:
    it's not clear if the j.p. you knew is the person who died in syria, we have contact to ex-insiders and they say it seems to be very unusual that specialized troops like the special forces are send into a combat or covered mission without any detailed briefing, preparation & some recon-info before they arrive in the target area. if this would happen, the whole operation would be endangered by "bad" surprises and unforseen difficulties hard to overcome, these "special" forces are only deployed in small numbers.
    even special forces acting as advisors must have some very special characteristics:
    I wonder if the j.p. you knew ever used arabic words or claimed to be able to speak arabic or an arabic dialect.
    but staying away even from his family, "reawakened" and engaging in a growing protestmovement?
    I don't think his "bosses" would have much trust his motivation to go on a more or less covered action, where his unbroken loyality would be vital for his colleagues and the success of the mission.
    what you say doesn't sounds like the j.p. you knew was a reliable special forces anymore and maybe something else happened to him, maybe he deserted and went underground, we know such things happen and people have to leave their life behind, just because they signed a bloody ticket to hell without better knowing.
    sorry for touching an open wound and honestly:
    I feel sorry for your loss.
     
  15. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    So you were a punk at SD occupy, we must have met because I was surrounded by punks there....did you ever stay the night at Civic Plaza with the anarchist group?
     
  16. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    the plaza wasn't that far from our hosts, we only had to walk the mile to sleep, I remember some punks quite well, but we mixed a lot with everybody, we wanted to find out why people were at the protest and talked whenever possible - some even called me an interviewer. ah yes, one time there was some commotion because I was feeding my dog familiar in public with meat from a s-market-give-perishables-away, thus keeping him from becoming vegan... well, it was his idea to eat it, I had to fulfill his telepathic wishes & he always tolerated my vegetarianism... some people had really problems with that.
    I can only speak of me, 5.9, west irish complexion, ulster accent & bad english, not much spanish, black leathers, heavy nps & a huge familiar? sometimes I had me fife with me when we came from busking? guess many will remember at least winston the familiar, he was/is still a character when he joines the masses... he's now living south of the border.
     
  17. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    It's almost unbelievable that we didn't meet, I would remember the accent...Winston is a good and close friend, ha small world.. like you I was not impressed with Occupy but I still put in a lot of work on behalf of anarchist direct action theory, it was a constant fight with liberals, reformers, democrats, informants, tea-party and an-cap kooks, not to mention constant police surveillance and attempted intimidation...I slept in that plaza for 47 nights and although the outcome was quite predictable...the best thing to come out of the whole experience was that their are now many more people that we turned on to anarchism that were previously terrified of us, that now are students themselves of anarchist theory and practice, in the end the reformist spirit of it all made me completely walk away from it but I feel like the few minds that were expanded and even some of the others that weren't but that now understood us much better was worth all that hard work and arrests and faces full of mace and pepper spray....

    An apology to the forum for going off topic....:beer:
     
  18. fubarista

    fubaristaExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 13, 2011
     
    I'm finding the situation in Egypt confusing.

    Supposedly as part of the people's revolution, the military junta (SCAF) that has ruled Egypt for the past 50 years and which gets $1.3 billion a year from the US to protect Israel, arrested Morsi. Is Mubarak still under "house arrest" at his own private seaside resort? The military action was supported by the US and the military stated that they are on good terms with Israel, apparently proving it by destroying the tunnels which were Gaza's only lifeline, something that Morsi had refused to do. Can a military junta supported by the US and Israel be said to be revolutionary because the people support it? One Egyptian on Twitter, Tarek Shalaby, expressed dismay at seeing people thanking and congratulating the military on the exact same spot where the military had killed many Jan 25 protesters.

    I didn't consider the protests that ousted Mubarak to be a revolution because SCAF remained in power. Doesn't a revolution have to change things in some way? How can it be a revolution if the power structure remains the same and the only change is a new spokespuppet determined by elections? "If elections could change anything," as Emma Goldman said, "they'd make them illegal," and, I might add, revolutions wouldn't be necessary. Elections kill revolutions.

    If millions of people went into the streets here in the US to oust Obama, the US military joined them and arrested Obama, and there was a new election that elected McCain, would that be a revolution? Nothing would change, the same US imperialist agenda would continue, and the US would continue to pay SCAF $1.3 billion a year to protect Israel, continue to arm and fund Al Qaeda in Syria, and continue to protect the rich and oppress the poor. Maybe I'm using the wrong dictionary, but I don't think that's what revolution means.
     
  19. Annie

    AnnieExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 22, 2013
     
    bit of correction: the tunnels - at least the known ones - are closed, thats true, but the egypt military opened a "uncontrolled" border crossing point at the Sinai and transports into Gaza were possible and more effective than the "smuggling" via the tunnels.
    the background of the tunnel closing was the infiltration of armed fundamentalists from Gaza into egypt.
    todays newsticker:
    in Rafah a police checkpoint and a building of the military security service were attacked with rockets on friday. another attack of militant islamists at a police- and military base at the Sinai killed one soldier, according to civil clinic personel.
    I don't think the closing of the tunnels was a pro-israeli act, but a security measure for egypt, todays news confirm this.
    obama critisized the egypt military and announced that the arms support to egypt will be reconsidered because of the "coup" (obama tried not to use the term).
    the african union excluded egypts membership - because an elected president was deprived of power.
    german and british ministers critisized the military coup as undemocratic and a serious setback.
    and you claim the military was by western powers paid to protect israel?
    and your comparison of the USA and egypt - a bit like apples & onions?
    honestly, I love don't-vote fetishism...
     
  20. dr. dee

    dr. deeMember New Member


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    Jul 7, 2013
     
    i think the situation in and about egypt isn't confusing at all, we just have to learn again, that western propaganda and - on our individual personal side - western views don't show the reality.
    under the actual conditions both movements, the 2011 and todays movement are revolutionary, because they invented a fundamental change:
    the people of egypt discovered their power and the means to take this power into their own hands.

    to expect something like "the revolution" in sense of the western opposition to the democratic state, is just naive and wishful thinking.
    each of the revolutions in "our" history and culture was the temporary result of a long and bitter struggle for freedom, a waystone towards the abolition of the state.
    so how could anyone expect the egyptians to do better than us and additionally, make the mistake to draw conclusions and judgements from the western view, completely disregarding their history and culture.
    well, you can find two thirds of this money in the annual economic report of lockheed...
    another interesting aspect:
    after the african spring now the cold war again?
     
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