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Middle Eastern Revolutions!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SurgeryXdisaster, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. SurgeryXdisaster

    SurgeryXdisasterExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Riots in Cairo

    Egypt revolution starts in Cairo:
    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfCZfw0sDkY[/video]


    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WNTE_uqHqw[/video]
     

  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    A revolution in egypt would probably be an islamist revolution.... not cool.
     
  3. Random Person From There

    Random Person From ThereExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Ungovernable is right on this one. No, this is not being one of your petty labels of "Islamophobia!", "Anti-Semite!", or any of that baseless labels you spew. I'm by origin Lebanese-Egyptian and an ex-Militant and extremist Christian, and I can tell you that I have been to many "revolutions", that of March 14 and others of the like. This "revolution" of theirs, same goes for the pathetic Tunisian revolution, will end up with another type of cancer ruling over them. They will not change anything other than a few minor reforms to "cool" the situation before pacifying the actual resistance and anger for some several years to come.

    Take the revolution of March 14 in Lebanon, 3/4 of the damned country united to oust the Syrian military occupation of Lebanon and oust the government and replace it with a "democratically elected" government. Look at it now. It was better off without an aimless revolution in the first place. The parties of Lebanon have split into two sides - one is Irani-Syrian backed, the other is Anglo-American backed. Pick yer poison. The politics of the Middle-East are fucked up, it's based on religion and factions more than actual ideology. They even fucked up the Lebanese Communist Party. Either get the rioters to side behind one ideology, one party, or don't. This is coming from an Anarchist, not a Marxist-Leninist.

    All in all, for Anarchists to support reorganizing of bourgeois systems in favor of the Middle-Class such as in Tunisia, Lebanon, and currently Egypt is stupid and supporting your enemy. Same goes for the "solidarity" with Palestine, which is by far the worst mistake Anarchists and Leftists have made to support either side of that conflict. One is supported by the Anglo-American countries, the other is backed by Syria and Iran. One is Jewish/Zionist, the other is Muslim (extremist). Both of them want strong governments. Both of them are ready to strangle and kill any and all Anarchists they can get their hands on. Both of them are our fucking enemies. Enough with this "solidarity" with the enemy bullshit.
     
  4. SurgeryXdisaster

    SurgeryXdisasterExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    No one said anything about solidarity,
    This was in the news and seemed it would make an interesting post
     
  5. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    :lmao: Oh man that's some funny shit....
     
  6. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Random Person, i agree with some part of your post but i strongly disagree with other parts.... First of all, tunisia and egypt is very different... You're right that we can't expect an anarchist revolution in tunisia, but at least tunisia is way more democratic and less extremist than egypt. Egypt has a strong past of tentatives of islamist revolution, they have a lot of extremist pro-jihad islamists and they already tryed to took the power many times. People in tunisia are just sick of dictatorship and they want a democratic government. A revolution in egypt will most likely turn into another islamist state while a revolution in tunisia will lead to democracy and will be benefit for the country. And no, i don't think they will just accept another dictator, look what happenned recently... there was a new government but a lot of them were in the old pro-ben ali government so the tunisians kept doing riots and protests....

    But on palestine i totally disagree with you. Palestine situation is unique and can't be compared to anything else. I don't see why anarchists shouldn't support movements like the intifada and support the palestinian people against occupation.... Anarchists should support any people fighting against imperialism, wether it will lead to an anarchist revolution or not. I'm on the side of the people, not on the side of yasser arafat, the fatah or the hamas... Israel is an illegitimate country, they are comitting crimes against humanity and killing lots of innocent people, that's why anarchists must support freedom for palestine. Same thing with tchechenie for example... Because anarchists support tchechenie doesn't means they support islamists, or because anarchists support people from tibet doesn't means they support a buddhist state.... Because anarchists were fighting against the wall of berlin doesn't means they were supporting the NATO side, so because anarchists fight against the ILLEGAL apartheid wall on palestine doesn't means they're supporting a palestinian state or government... Same thing with apartheid on africa, because we're against apartheid doesn't means we're on Nelson Mandela's side. Or because you support a free ireland doesn't means you support IRA, etc... And the list goes on....

    Seriously, how can anarchists stay quiet when they see that israel attack humanitarian aid convoys, build illegal walls, bomb palestinian villages, spread media lies, kill children and teenagers, destroy they way of life and olive plantations, etc....

    Also, the palestinian doesn't want a strong state. Even the most extremist terrorists said they wanted ONE state for ONE people, they want a country where people all have equal rights, wether you are jew, muslim, christian or atheist....

    So yes, i'm in solidarity with all people fighting against imperialism, occupation, injustice, etc.... Wether they are anarchist or not, as long as they are not terrorists, extremists, dictators, or anybody that would make the situation worse than it already is. If we'd support only anarchists, then we would support nobody.
     
  7. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    I agree that the situation in egypt is different to the situation in tunesia, but the reasons for the rising unrest seem to be very similiar - from my point of view. As far as I'm informed, both - the tunesian and the egypt movement are directed against the hard living conditions resulting from the corrupt and repressive dictatorships of ben ali (23 years before he was driven out of the land) and mubarak (around 30 years) and the spark that ignited the protests in kairo was the obviously manipulated election two weeks ago - and the quasi announcement of mubaraks son gamal as his future successor - there are already popular jokes going around about the new pharaonic dynasty: the mubaraks...
    Because of mubaraks role in the peace process between israel and it's neighbors in the early 80's and his constant fight against the muslim fundamentalists in egypt his government is no. 2 recipient of western military and economic aid - after israel which is no. 1 on the list. Us-military aid last year: 1,3 billion dollars - for a state that keeps half of his population living on poverty line conditions since decades, responding to the slightest sign of organized protests with massive cops and military presence - this night another 4 people were shot.
    By now, there is no sign of fundamentalist influence on the protests in kairo - the ultra-islamists are still a problem of the rural areas outside the big cities only - maybe "thanks" to mubaraks strikt repression of fundamentalism over the last 30 years. I think merging both movements in north africa with the completely different situation in palestine/lebanon concerning the fundamentalists is wrong - because of this difference.
    No doubt that in both countries the cancerous "state" will survive the trouble, but I agree with ungov - the living situation of the people is more important than the strict black/white view if their movements are anarchist or not. The people suffering under the western-supported dictatorships deserve our solidarity - and supporting them now may prevent them turning to the cheap promises of muslim fundamentalism - we shouldn't make the mistake to leave them to their fate - because it's too obvious "who" will eagerly fill the gap.
    The chaos in the near east is the best example what should be prevented - because of this I again agree with ungov: It's the people who need support and solidarity even if it's impossible to "take sides" and choose between western imperialism and muslim fundamentalism.
    Random person - it's a bit rough in the tone don't you think? Nobody actually "spit" something like this...
    Have you ever heard of geert wilders or thilo sarazzin in europe? Islamophobia isn't just a petty label as far as I experience here in germoney where even the leftwing liberals start to think about the almost obvious tendency of the system to replace the gone out of date "anti-communism" with a new label: anti-islamism.
    I am aware of the dangers of religious orientated possible future enemies to anarchism - but we should be aware of the actual propaganda campaigns of our main enemy now too.
     
  8. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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  9. Random Person From There

    Random Person From ThereExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Yes, I don't know why I should not disagree with this in any way. I was not mainly speaking of Anarchist revolutions, but the replacement of one system with another that still do not benefit the public except offering a few reforms that temporarily change things instead of a long-term solution.

    The problem is most of the people support Hamas or Fatih depending on which party they prefer to season their steaks. It's a small minority that does not care about politics in a war stricken country, they support whichever movement can get them out of that mess faster or end the existence of the Israeli government. Anarchists should not support the uprising and revolts in Palestine because both the Palestinian and Israeli countries are against us and are ready to kill and repress any Anarchist action that could pose a threat, note what happened to the Communist Part of Tunisia's leader/member. That's like helping your enemy build a cannon directed towards you. What's happening to the people is sad indeed, but that is no excuse for supporting their government.

    This could be the same issue as when Kropotkin and co. had different opinions on World War II, whether to side with the Allies against the Fascists and Nazis or not. Now, of course this is where I disagree. Anarchists should not support any fighting against imperialism when that fight wants to restore or form a corruptible Muslim extremist government backed by Iran and Syria. Brain cancer for lung cancer anyone? It does not matter if it will turn into an Anarchist revolution, it could be any Marxist revolution for all I care and they will get my support; but not when it is to prop and support a government that does not seek the interest of the people nor will provide any radical change for the better. That is the very reason why I do not support any of such revolutions.


    Every country is basically illegitimate for one reason or another and every country has/is committing crimes against humanity and killing lots of innocent people, be it direct or indirect. Do you think that Palestine under Muslim extremist rule would be better off than under Zionist rule? As you have said, they are fighting to "free" a certain people or give them their wants. Apartheid is something that MUST be resisted, it has a solution and if achieved will definately provide a long-term change for the better. While on the other hand, supporting one country against another because X's people are suffering will not prove to change anything.

    Do you really think that if the Palestinians are freed from Israeli rule and oppression, will they be better off under Palestinian rule that is full with "mafia" and "Muslim" rule that take decisions from Sheikhs? I really doubt it. Now as I had previously said, "one country is Zionist, the other is Muslim. One is back by the Anglo-American countries while the other is backed by Iran-Syria. We oppose both of them, we oppose borders, the state, and religion all of which they both uphold. Then why is it that they are of any concern to us? Both of them want strong governments. Both of them are ready to strangle and kill any and all Anarchists they can get their hands on. Both of them are our fucking enemies. So then I ask, why is it that we put our time and effort into such countries that will not benefit us, others, or change anything worthwhile to call "successful"." The people? I do not think that is a very important concern, or one that we can do anything about when millions of people are dying due to curable diseases, starvation, poverty, (other) wars, governments, exploitation of the people, etc. etc.

    Why do we not then focus support on the Iraqi and Afghani people? What about the Irani people? Or the many other countries with a suffering people? Why is it Palestine which clearly opposes our views and will without any doubt become one of our worst enemies that we focus our energy on? The people cannot think for themselves, they will trust and believe everything their governments say and do without a question.


    Yes, I have heard of the attack on the humanitarian aid convoys, ruthless. That is one very reason why Anarchists should not support Israel. But think of it this way, do you think if Palestine was able, would it not along with other Arabian countries seek to exterminate Israel? Come on now, I've been to Egypt, Palestine and Lebanon, each citizen I spoke to said he wants Israel to be exterminated and the Jews to be slaughtered. Even the leaders of those countries claim that, they call it Pan-Arabism or something I think and mutual opposition to Israel. You cannot say that the Palestinians will not do such a thing, or that the Arabs will not if they have the opportunity. They'll bomb and annihilate any other country they think is "Western" or against Islamic law. We cannot even support any religion especially Islam when they oblige their women to wear burkas and hijabs, to not even give them any sense of dignity or right as a human being. Christianity comes second. This all sounds Islamophobic and Anti-Semitic but as I said, I am an Arab and I do live with them and know their actions and views first-hand, it is not coming from some "Aryan" or outsider trying to build up his opinions from nothing other than vague sources. Take a look at Iran, think that is better off than Israel for instance? I do not see any Irani flags.

    That basically goes each to his own, from the ones I have spoken to they say otherwise. They think that a strong government is needed to teach the people. By strong state I do not mean a dictatorship, I mean a state with strict laws. I never heard of an extremist claim unity with an Atheist or Jew. Care to provide some links?

    If we'd support Leftists and Anarchists, we'd be putting our energy to better use by trying to spread the word rather than weeping and waving flags of foreign enemy countries.

    You should go to Egypt some time, nice place. A bit of religious wars and bombs on the side. Rarely any Islamist fundamentalists in Lebanon, it's mostly a Christian extremist country. By extremist I mean, EXTREMIST.

    That's why I support an actual revolution, to ease the living standards of the people rather than having them thanking their governments because it could be worse. The only thing that we could actually do is just wish for the best, other than that basically nothing. The same people we are fighting with will be our enemies should an Islamic extremist state be formed.

    Yes, I know. I meant that as forewarning of sorts before people on the forum start calling me such names without even knowing why I did say such things. Not against the label myself, nor do I care much about it, but it was merely as a note to fellow members.

    There basically is no "Left", or a proper one at least, and that hurts the country and its population. Right-wingers with different religions fighting for parliamentary seats instead for ideological goals and changes.
     
  10. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Israeli based Anarchists Against The Wall and others are doing fantastic work in supporting the Palestinian people, not State. Through these Israeli anarchists, Palestinians are being radicalized to an idea of no State and no Allah. However, in the short term, both sides are fighting for the end of oppression on Palestinians and the right to be recognized as citizens and human beings, much as the Zapatistas are doing for the indigenous people of Mexico. It is never illegitimate for anarchists to fight for the turning forward of the 'revolutionary wheel'. If we as a group of Ideologues shun these efforts en mass, then we suffer the risk of becoming an elite and our ideas will be shunned in turn as obsolete.
     
  11. saturninesky

    saturnineskyMember Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Apparently Egypt just shut off internet in the country...

    http://www.arabist.net/blog/2011/1/28/u ... ernet.html
     
  12. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    A democracy instead of a dictatorship does benefit the public and is a solution..

    Blame israel.

    Seriously, Israel are destroying their lives, making checkpoints everywhere, preventing humanitarian aid from entering the country, colonising their land, destroying their houses, destroying their olive plants, etc.... It's not surprising that they turn to the only people defending them and fighting for their cause. Israel created their own ennemies with their politics, just like the USA did.

    So what ? Israel is still an illigitimate country on a stolen land, it doesnt have any reason to exist and we should fight against it. One nation for palestinians and israelis where everyone have equal rights, thats what everyone is asking.

    And it's false that they're all against us, maybe the majority of palestinians are anarchists but they are not willing to kill us. As for israelians, there are a couple of anarchists there, ever heard of the kibbutz ? Close to the principle of anarchism... There's a couple of jewish anarchists there, including anarchists against the wall.

    Communist party definatly isn't the same as anarchism.

    Once again you don't understand, read again my post, you can defend the people without defending the government.
    Man, are you going to stop supporting the iraqi people against the illigitimate occupation by USA because you're scared people will think you're supporting their government ???

    Noam chomsky and many other anarchists philosophers are supporting palestinian people without supporting the state, the same way they are supporting iraqi people against the occupation and the same way they were defending vietnam against US imperialism.

    The manifest of the 16 was during the WW1, not the WW2 ;)
    But this is a very different issue, kropotkin decided to support the allies, the pro-palestinian anarchists aren't supporting palestinian state or palestinian army/terrorists

    I don't remember in the past 200+ years that some group of religious decided to take over a country and say it belongs to them because their religion said it, and started stealing their land. Israeli is a state that appeared from nowhere, not a country that invaded another.
    Anarchists are atheist against religion, it is totally normal that they are against this mascarade when a group of religious steal land because some religious book said it was the promised land

    For the 34034803904850 time, I AM NOT SUPPORTING A PALESTINIAN STATE, i am with the palestinian people.
    I don't give a fuck whatever the future palestinian country turns into, ISRAELI IS AN ILLEGITIMATE COUNTRY, and it is not normal that palestinian isn't recognized officially by most of the countries, this is something that anarchist should be against. Saying we should support only anarchist fighting is pure sectarism and elitism. if i'd follow everything you say, i'd stop fighting for the independance of iraqi, afghanistan, tibet, tchetchenie, basque countries, etc.... Because of how these countries may turn after independance... that's ridiculous..

    Once again, i don't care. Israel doesn't have any legitimate reason to exist, PERIOD. And yes the world would be better without israel, the palestinian people would stop dying, and israel would stop starting war against the whole muslim world.

    This is so stupid to say that we should abandon the palestinian people and not support them against their oppressor. Seriously man, what the fuck are you supporting in your life ? if you only support anarchists then you're probably careless about imperialism in the world and all war going on.... What the fuck would you do if you were a palestinian ? You wouldn't fight against your oppressors because it wouldn't be anarchy if you win ??

    That's a fucking disgusting excuse.

    I do support the irani and afghani people against occupation.

    Israel MUST be exterminated.




    Like nestor Makhno said:
    Always on the side of the oppresseds, never with the oppressors !!
     
  13. JackNegativity

    JackNegativityExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    So what i'm getting from Random Person's posts is that since he's of middle eastern descent, we're supposed to take his word that arabs are racially inclined to extremism and genocide. Except for him, of course.


    Here's to hoping I'm wrong on this one :beers:
     
  14. Random Person From There

    Random Person From ThereExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    It could be considered a step forward, but is in no way a solution.

    I could blame Israel and I do, but the facts are there: people are now supporting Hamas and Fatih and would go to any extent with them.

    I reiterate, many countries are based on stolen land (The Americas, Australia, Turkey, Israel, etc.). The latter part of your post I did not get, "One nation for palestinians and israelis where everyone have equal rights, thats what everyone is asking." Could you back this up with sources and such? Last time I heard, Fundamentalists and extremists want to "erase Israel off the face of the Earth along with Jews", which you did claim it was terrorists who said that. Now you speak as if the people want to give equal rights to Israelis and Palestinians, could you provide sources or anything of that sort?

    "And it's false that they're all against us, maybe the majority of palestinians are anarchists but they are not willing to kill us"
    The majority ARE against us, otherwise no radical activity would be silenced there. I think you worded it wrong, did you mean "majority of palesntians are not anarchists?". That goes back to whoever will take power in that country, if it will be based on Islamic law and consent and decisions coming from the Sheikhs, then yes, they'll kill Anarchists, Atheist, and those who are attempting to "conspire" against the government,

    It is not, no one said it is. I was speaking of the silencing of resistance and opposition prior to and during the revolts.

    By supporting the people, you are indirectly supporting their causes, one of which is forming a state. That is enough for me.

    And how is that support done? Wasting time and waving flags at embassies? If there has to be an actual support there needs to be a formation of an Anarchist organization and guide the people to the light, that's my two cents and I will be willing to start such a thing if anyone is willing to join me. Palestine has been taking up the time and energy of many Anarchists instead of focusing on more concrete matters.

    Yes, I apploligize this lack of sleep isn't helping. As I had said, supporting the people is supporting their causes, one of which is the formation of a state and hence an army. Now here comes where someone will probably reply with a "no, you can support the people without supporting the government they all wish to form", but then I ask them to explain, so please do.

    More reason to oppose Israel, but that is not concerning what we are talking about, we are by definition against ALL states. No exception.

    Call it sectarianism, elitism, whatever you wish but I only support actual revolutions that will aid the people for a while worthy of our efforts. Let that revolution be Anarchist, let it be Marxist, won't make much of a difference if either one helps the people for years to come instead of imposing a few set of reforms that will change nothing. I do not and can not see any reason to support the independence of Iraq, Afghanistan, Tibet, etc. Why? But there are people suffering there, you ask. Well, we cannot be of effect fighting a fight that's been there for many years, and if we did we would be propping our enemies rather than forming into organizations and groups to spread the message. People are suffering everywhere, the longer Capitalism exists, the longer the torment and starvation of millions will persist. It is stupid to support a couple of occupied countries when there are millions of other countries facing millions of problems. We want a final solution to this problem, a proper revolution. Not waving flags of Tunis, Palestine, Egypt, no. A spread of the message, the formation of groups, organizing and taking action against the state will be the best we can do. Supporting a people trying to form a state of their own is pathetic. Let their anger boil, fuel their hatred and you'll have a revolution.

    Once again, i don't care. Israel doesn't have any legitimate reason to exist, PERIOD. And yes the world would be better without israel, the palestinian people would stop dying, and israel would stop starting war against the whole muslim world.[/quote]
    No country has any legitimate reason to exist. No countries, no borders. Heard of it?
    "And yes the world would be better without israel, the palestinian people would stop dying, and israel would stop starting war against the whole muslim world."
    And we can all live happily ever after. That or some other type of "oppression" will take the Anarchist concern. Even if Israel is gone (and asking WHY and HOW is of real importance) people would still be suffering under the new regime (also depends on the type of regime, state, rulers) which would then render all the Anarchist effort vain.

    Me? I'm supporting any proper revolution to come and attempting to form an Anarchist organization over here before we are swept away as happened with other state conspirators. It is not stupid to "abandon" the palestinian people and not supporting them against their oppressors, we are abandoning no one for even if we attempted to do something we cannot if you are in Canada and I'm over somewhere else, all we could do is just post "Solidarity" and wave flags on the street. Now coems the part of the support against their oppressor, and it seems that you do not get it that every country, every people, every individual, every family are being oppressed by someone or something. The people of the USA need support against their oppressors, the people of X need support against their oppressors. Changes nothing and proves nothing. Do you not get it? There is no solution to imperialism except by destroying/taking over/pacifying/de-statifying the country of origin, in this case the USA. Fighting branches of said imperialist country with flags and rocks does nothing, even with bombs where in that case Al-Qaeda are doing us a favor in that respect. War will always happen, we cannot avoid that, even in the future and in an Anarchist society.

    If I were Palestinian I would have an ACTUAL REASON to fight against the Israelis: They killed my younger brother, my father, my family, they took away my house, my sister, etc. It would be personal reasons that fuel my desire for vengeance, but if it comes to Israel wanting to take over Palestine then I would have no problem with that at all, let them do so for all I care at least they will bring electricity, food, and water. If they fuck up, the people will start a revolution, if not we're better off using American technology and having electricity rather than sticks and stones. Oh wait, I probably suppose you do not know that in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and Palestine electicity is not 24/7? Yes, even water is rationed. So a state ABLE to supply such basic things is welcome to rule over me any day. Now, back on topic, if I were a Palestinian I would have actual personal reasons to fuel my inner demon, this cannot be found in any non-Palestinians who cry support for their "brothers".

    No it is not, it points to the fact that Capitalism must be eliminated as soon as possible. Don't fight the branches, hit the fucking tree.

    *sigh* You do not seem to get it that the oppressed can become the oppressors. Israel is a country formed with illegitimate reasons (just as many countries) with people living in it, do you want us to go in and bomb the fuck out of that country? I do feel remorse and pity for the Palestinians just as I do with the Africans, but I cannot do anything worthy of calling it support.
     
  15. Random Person From There

    Random Person From ThereExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Don't take my word for it, read the Koran or live with extremists or even just visit an Arabian country, care to go to Syria? Lebanon? Egypt? Palestine? Iran? But nice attempt at a provocation, troll.
     
  16. AgentOrange

    AgentOrangeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    @Random Person:
    so you will only support anarchist in struggles? then expect only anarchist to support you in struggles.
    living that way you will effectively change NOTHING. you need to interact with people not of your opinion.
    say, you support the people of palestine: every time an anarchist supports a palestine in their struggle Without Being Asked to do so, there is an actual Chance that the person thinks about this act of helping.
    ''why did this person I don't know at all helped me?''
    maybe not everyone will think about it but abuse the aid, but the people who think about it will at least be open minded (more than before) about your attitude towards the entire shit going on, anarchy in this case. (maybe even understanding why you helped them: because they are living beings, like you are, with equal rights and a right to exist in this world)
    everytime you help any human being there is a Chance that it will rethink his attitude towards you. and the resulting Tolerance is a first step to wide Acceptance of Anarchists, of Anarchy.

    but if you refuse to help anyone not shareing your attitude, you will end up having done nothing, i fear...
     
  17. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Well, it's still just a discussion, so let's keep it civilisized?

    Reading the Koran wouldn't help a thing, it's like reading the bible - you can interpret everything out of it and much of the stuff is so burdened down with eastern poetry, that it's hardly understandable by us matter-of-fact westerners. Like the bible the Koran get's abused as the "reason" for everything - most prominent example:
    Mohammed stated that the D'schihad is a strictly defensive war, justified only to protect people against oppressors...
    I spend some time at a fatah training camp in Jordan in the late 80's and ten years later I contributed multiple times to a direct action project of oxfam around 40 miles north of assuan where we were constructing water pumps and wind wheels for water wells out of car scratch - the project was finally closed down by the egypt army pretending that they couldn't guarantee for our "safety" after some fundamentalist activity in the area became known.
    In Jordan and Lebanon I witnessed the rise of the Hamas - first a social network doing caritative work for the poor, they were even supported by Israel because of their opposition against the Fatah, then they were becoming a political party with a miltia - then... the rest is history. Hamas simply filled the gap the Fatah was ignoring - you are right there was too much mafia-like elitism, lots of armed activists caring more for their personal wealth than anything else, Arafat smiled from every wall in our baracks but there were jokes going round that he's completely occupied with fathering a successor with his young wife in Tunesia - while we were training for the liberation war - too bad that nobody actually believed that it would ever happen...

    With this little experience and the information I get from people around here and the news - I still say we should not abandon the palestinians, punkmar stated the best example how we can take influence: Radicalizing the palestinians with anarchist support, spread the word of the final liberation, opposing the religious manipulation that would only lead to a new oppression - and see how successful the Hamas was in the late 80's and early 90's doing their version...
    Maybe it's a necessary step - I was living with people there who were experts in tank hunting and rocket artillery - but could not read or write, despite the Fatah's claim of a democratic future for everyone except the jews - and I had constantly to fight against the "supposed" anti-semitism of the "germans" like me in the eyes of our palestinian comrades - any suggestion of a school program was taken down - not necessary, the training with arms is what's important for adult males.
    The result was this:
    Yes, you are right about this - but what's the real solution for the problem? Ignoring it and concentrating on the abolishment of western imperialism along with the state - and then fight the Hamas/Hisbollah/Taliban oppression in the orient?
    What about fuel their knowledge, help them overcome their lack of vision and vulnerability for the incitement of the muslim extremists - radicalising them like Anarchists Against The Wall?
    Sorry, but your statement reminds me of the marxists "the results justify the means" - and I guess we all know how this ended in eastern europe, asia and cuba.
     
  18. Random Person From There

    Random Person From ThereExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Interesting indeed, noted. I refered Jack to witness it for himself and called him a troll since he resorted to ad hominem rather than making an actual argument. Alas, interesting read there Vassily, basically what I said about the Koran was that it was something that extremists uphold and interpret however they wish, and for that very reason I referred Jack to it to explain that what I say does not come from nothing.

    That I can agree with, yes, spreading the word of Anarchism over there would indeed be better than merely giving them "support" when they are clearly going in a direction that opposes our views - the formation of a state.

    The formation of local organizations and parties that promote Leftist ideology with an active membership with actual goals unlike SOME parties over here who are too troubled and involved with foreign affairs of Palestine to even consider inciting a revolution or spreading the word in their own country. No, do not ignore the problem. The abolishment of the American state should be performed by the people living there, and the abolishment of the Israeli oppression should be performed by the people living there. That is the most effective type of revolution, if you have mostly foreigners who are not attached to that country by heart then they will see no reason to die for said country as compared to a local for example; but yes, external military support on the side of the revolutionaries would be a very good idea but would hinder and postpone other world revolution if the revolution becomes concentrated in one country.

    Now this will get a bit off topic since you referred to Hizb-allah (Party of Allah/God) which you can just skip if you wish to. There is no oppression coming from Hizb-allah, it cannot be compared to Taliban's actions in any way, shape, or form. Hizb-Allah, is a Syrian-Irani Islamic extremist front that is generally opposed to Western imperialism and Israeli existence. It does not "oppress" anyone since it does not control communities that do not wish to be under its control, it's merely an armed political party portrayed by the West as the Lebanese equivalent of Taliban. Communities that support/join Hizb-Allah's effort are mainly located in Western Beirut and the South where Israeli activity and hatred of it are the most concentrated, they're not forced to join in the effort unlike Taliban. They pose no restrictions and publicly armed appearance, there was one uprising a few years back though, except when the need calls for it such as in defence against an invasion.You've obviously heard of the atrocities the media likes to portray Hizb-Allah of committing, but that's the media for you. Now I have not spoken of Hizb-Allah's political side and its future plans yet, I will not do so since there is no need to do such a thing. I disagree with their politics and ideology, but I can not go against their military actions against invasions. It does concern me since I am living over here and should Israel begin to invade I will either leave the country or fight if obliged.

    You seem to know matters such as this, that's like why I like to debate with you.

    Yes obviously knowledge must come prior and during the revolution, the spreading of Leftist ideology will be necessary and even a basis for an actual revolution to become successful which makes me sometimes think of the necessity of a vanguard. Their anger needs to be existent before we can even consider a revolution, they need to be fed with ideas and knowledge before the shit hits the fan, otherwise we'd be seeing idiots with flags wrapped around their shoulders jumping up and down crying out "Tunisia!" or "Down with Bin Ali" with no actual goal or ideology to fulfill and follow after which some random guy with a pocket full of money will rise up and be proclaimed president. They're just going on with the tide.

    ----

    @AgentOrange

    No, I will help them if they are near me, in my sight and they are in distress - by all means I will help them, but no so when I live a country away or half the world away. It's a very small minority that will realize all our efforts and actions to support their effort even if we were able to do anything other than running at walls and dodging gas grenades. I do not only support Anarchist struggles, let it be Marxist and I will support it. Do you think that everyone has to be an Anarchist/Leftist to actually join in the revolution with you? Did you think that the Russian people during the revolutions were all Marxists? Of course not.
     
  19. JackNegativity

    JackNegativityExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Holy shit, seriously? I was seriously hoping you had either misspoke or I had misunderstood. How can a self-proclaimed anarchist talk about an entire race in generalities like that? You're up in here spouting racist shit--and I'm the troll?
     
  20. Random Person From There

    Random Person From ThereExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Re: Riots in Cairo

    Did I say the Arabs are RACIALLY inclined to extremism and genocide? Now you're being an idiot. I was talking about ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS NOT RACIAL MATTERS. Stop trying to reword and change the meaning of my sentence, how can I be anti-Arab when I'M ALREADY AN ARAB?

    Edit: Re-reading your initial post from your perspective changes the entire meaning I meant to address. I had thought you said "That just because Random Person From There is an Arab we have to take his word for it" or something along those lines, excuse my idiocy.
     
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