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Loosing my patience

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by 40oz Punk, Jun 4, 2012.

  1. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    Jan 10, 2012
     
    By it's definition, changing the world is not "sitting down with your arms crossed", bitching about how no one is doing anything about it is though. If you care about millions starving, I would suggest working for a respectable nonprofit and going there and helping them yourself. The things that are most effective at causing change may require you to sit down, shave your 'hawk, and cover up those sick chaos tattoos though. It all depends what's important to you: making a difference or looking good trying. You would change the world a lot faster by suing a starbucks than throwing a brick through one.
     
  2. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 25, 2012
     
    suing starbucks? LOL
    I don`t believe in charity, and people can get quadruple hawks for all I care. You can still make a change for yourself.
     
  3. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    Jan 10, 2012
     
    You've never heard of lawyers committed to social justice that prosecute corporations or defend people's civil rights or challenge unethical, unconstitutional laws in court? Never heard of the ACLU? Never heard of the National Police Accountability Project? That's a "LOL"

    Good to know you don't believe in helping people, but believe in fashion. There's hope after all...
     
  4. Utopian

    UtopianExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 9, 2012
     
    Stay strong i abandon so many ideologies in the past communism, Utopian socialism, Trotskism, Leninism,.... maoism, but i always came back into politics. I'm stuck at radical social democrat party now.

    or just take a vacation from politics clear your mind for one month and then come back. This always works. sometimes you get overloaded with this ideas that you just burst.

    another think to do is to be patient my grandma always says people will wake up soon,and they will fight for their rights.
     
  5. 40oz Punk

    40oz PunkMember Forum Member


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    Jul 19, 2011
     
    @Utopian well you went through the same shit I went through, except my ideologies just happened to turn into believes and I had a harder time moving on. That's true though, but I honestly don't believe in democracy one bit. I i feel like making a difference with a "vote," it's just the system trying to make me feel like I'm actually making a difference. That's never the case though. Me picking a master just because we agree in one of many subject matters is fucking "retarded." So I always go back to more "radical" ideas. I'm really not about to conform to something I don't agree with. And hell no. we CAN'T all just agree to disagree... at least not in this matter.
     
  6. 40oz Punk

    40oz PunkMember Forum Member


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    Jul 19, 2011
     
    @Cascadian I don't carry a mohawk, and I have a tattoo but it ain't something you can see. I don't follow the fashion; let me just say it that way. I never did, I had a few friends that did, in fact most of the clique did. I just have the fucked up, ass-hole attitude. that I can't help. And I also love punk. :thumbsup: That being the case me giving money to people ain't gonna do shit! I'm sure, or at least you should be aware of this. "Give a man a fish....give em a fishing pole he'll eat forever." That's the way I look at it. We have to make a difference from the bottom. Stick some nitro and themite right at the base of the headquarters, and that'll be my way of throwing a brick through their window. And I understand how fucked up that sounds. But you gotta fight fire with fire.
     
  7. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    Jan 10, 2012
     
    I agree, throwing money at something doesn't do shit. That's not what I was advocating at all. Blowing up a building isn't going to undo all the harm whoever caused what. Like I said, if you care about starving people, go to them and work with them to become stable, sustainble, and self sufficient. That requires more work and patience than being a hardass though, which is why most punks don't see it as an option..

    Also on the whole voting thing: Voing for a poltician does NOT mean you endorse them, support them, believe them, or like them. It does not mean that you believe voting will make a difference. And it DEFINITELY has nothing to do with all that patriotic bullshit about being a good american or it being a civic duty. No, it's about choosing the lesser of two evils, and yes it DOES exist. Make no mistake, all politicians are corrupt, bullshitting, puppeted assholes. It's a fact, however, that some are worse than others. It would be better if a center-right politician (democrat) held office than a far right winger (republican). Center right is closer to left than far right. I'm not unaware that Obama is doing a lot of fucked up shit, but don't you think a republican would do far worse? I'm not saying that its ANY substitute for direct action, but if you look at it from a harm reduction perspective, wouldn't you want to make sure someone slightly less bad was in control if someone is going to be in power ANYWAY?
     
  8. 40oz Punk

    40oz PunkMember Forum Member


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    Jul 19, 2011
     
    It's really fucking sad that you would just conform with picking the "best of the worst" fuck that. That ain't doing anybody good, in fact seeing shit from that angle is what keeps most middle class seeing from that "blind spot." I think this is what woke up a lot of Americans during this (next) election, they didn't like neither of the candidates, but they were going to vote for the one who wouldn't fuck up their country so bad. And you know they thought about it, and were like "well, what kind of fucked up system is this." I'm sure non of them are going to do anything about it, but yeah.
     
  9. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    Jan 10, 2012
     
    What's "fucking sad" is that you don't get the concept of the path of least resistance. There's nothing conformist about it. Most people don't vote, in case you haven't heard. And if that's how you really feel, not voting is just as conformist as voting, because then you literally are making no difference. If you think "voting" isn't doing anything, then "not voting" isn't doing a damn thing either. And you're certainly not making anything worse by voting, because someone is going to take power anyway. You are, however, making things worse when you aren't voting against someone you know for a fact is going to make things WORSE than the other guy. Taking no action is an action, especially someone that is openly admitting that they aren't doing anything else with their lives to make the situation better.

    I am going to school for environmental engineering. I'm getting a job that I know for a fact is going to make a direct impact. I already stated (that you ignored), that voting isn't a subtitute for direct action. Voting isn't something that I take pride in doing. It's something that I do because FOR SOME REASON, it makes sense to me that "less bad" is BETTER than "more bad"

    And if you think voting is what fucked middle class americans then I don't know what to tell you
     
  10. 40oz Punk

    40oz PunkMember Forum Member


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    Jul 19, 2011
     
    Path of least resistance? Voting is simply encouraging the system to keep doing what they're doing. Here is the thing though, you think that that time I spend "not voting" is me simply sitting down. That's when you took on something completely different. And completely misinterpret what I was trying to say. It isn't the "voting" what fucked up the middle class. Is the settling for the least amount that was given to them. And this can be applied to almost all the areas on the field. From big corporations making BILLIONS exploiting the workers for fucking ->minimum wage<-, to people settling for "the best of the worst." They look at things from this angle, and simply stick to that mind set! America relies on this, that's what capitalism is all about. That's one of many ways the U.S. keep the people on check. And I'm not trying to insult you know. I'm sure you' want the best for the people. Just think about what I'm saying.
     
  11. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    The system is not being encouraged to be doing anything by anything else except for the results they want. Whether people vote or not it's proven irrelevant, because voting is at an all time low. If no one voted, the system would not collapse on it's own. That makes no sense. In fact, things would be worse if no one voted because that says to them "look, they're bowing down. They give up!" Voting is the last thing the average american can control.

    On the middle class: people were not faced with "settling for the least amount". That's the opposite of what happened. What fucked middle class america is our culture of consumerism. See, politicians don't want people to give a fuck about what happens in their country. "Just watch TV, read celebrity gossip, eat fast food, buy buy buy things, everything is perfect, stay calm, there's nothing to be afraid of, there's no hard decisions in your life". It was the fact that americans didn't think that anything else mattered as long as they were fat and happy. People don't fight because they don't think there's anything to fight against.

    Let me just tell you that everyone on the right WANTS all of this fucked shit to happen because it is good for their own businesses. Everyone on the "left" (more like center right) LETS fucked shit happen sometimes because they need the VOTES to stay in power. Coincidently, every fucked up legislation that obama signed was made up by the right, and most of the time he didn't want to sign it but he did it anyway to avoid problems with the House. I'm not trying to justify or defend him, but this is how politics work. For every fucked up decision he makes, there are a few good ones that a right winger wouldn't make ON TOP of the fucked up ones anyway. Like gay marriage, birth control, environmental standards, and many more. Harm Reduction dude. LESS BAD > MORE BAD. Think about how many headaches we could have avoided if bush never got elected. And I don't see voting as something "in favor of this", I see it as "voting AGAINST that"

    That's fine you don't want to vote, but what are you doing with yourself that's making a difference that doesn't involve you doing something realistically you're never going to do, like blow up a building?
     
  12. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    Obama gotz a peace prize, he must be better than right wingers!

    what liberal bollocks.
     
  13. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    Lol wut? They didn't realise that being a slave was bad until some slave owners told them?

    and of course what we all need is some fine upstanding central committee to lead us. Oh my shepherd, where art thou?

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    You're an idiot. Way to childishly oversimplify a point without actually arguing anything.

    Are you suggesting that none of those things I listed exist or have happened? Are you trying to suggest that they have never been effective? Please tell me how you're fighting the system, I'd like to hear the change you've directly caused.
     
  15. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    yr right, I am a childish idiot. What I need is a haircut, a snazzy shirt, sensible slacks, a job managing the poor (oops, I mean 'helping people'), a membership with the ALP, or, if I'm feeling really Radical, the Greens (as unfortunately I'm in the wrong country to vote for a Nobel Peace Prize winner), and a disconnection from reality so as to believe I'm changing the world.
     
  16. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    Jan 10, 2012
     
    The first article you posted is not relevant because it only applies to organizations that are run like shit and used to make money. Not every organization is run like that. I never advocated working for a specific organization, especially not an irresponsible one. Cheap polemic. It IS a good excuse to not do anything, however...

    Not only that, but "charities" were not even on the list of things that you considered "liberal bollocks". I'd like to see you argue that lawyers defending people's rights in court or suing the police is "liberal bollocks", and I'd also like to see you answer the questions I keep asking you.

    I never said Obama was doing anything good, so the other link you posted was irrelevant too. I said he was doing less bad. You think that anything Obama is doing someone on the right faction wouldn't be doing, and then some more? Does that make sense to you? Do you understand the difference between thinking something is "less bad" and "good"? Clearly you don't because I had already explained it:

    I don't know why you keep bringing up peace prizes. I didn't mention it, so I don't know why you are putting words in my mouth. Try to quote something I actually said next time.

    And yes you are a childish idiot, and yes you probably should get off your ass and get a job, because you're not even good at being an armchair anarchist. Enjoy your steak.
     
  17. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I've got a job, and that's the problem. You know, capitalism and all that...
    I'm having steak for dinner, and I think it will be most enjoyable.

    Briefly, cops still kill people and get away with it, corporations still do shit things across the world. Yr faith in legalistic mechanisms to cease such behaviour is, at best, misplaced.

    Does a drastic increase in drone killings count as 'less bad'? Huh.

    Pointing out the dodgy workings of 'respectable nonprofits' is irrelevant and cheap polemic, gotcha.
     
  18. Cascadian

    CascadianActive Member Forum Member


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    So according to your logic, people might as well never defend anyone right's, challenge any corporation, or hold the police accountable because shit it doesn't work 100% of the time!!! Who cares if some people get justice?! Never mind the fact that there is constant, ongoing attempts to resolve these issues. People should just give up! Never thought I'd hear an "anarchist" say that people don't deserve their rights defended or corporations challenged :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: I'm beginning to see a pattern here "Oh, people are going to kill cows anyway so I might as well eat meat. Oh, people are going to get fucked anyway so I might as well do nothing"

    "Faith" also implies that I think it's the definitive solution. Never said that, I said it's a way to make a direct impact.


    Finally, a real argument. I don't disagree with you here. This is one example of "more bad", but there a few things to consider. The first being that you're making an assumption that another politician wouldn't do the same thing, which is strange because that's the argument you were making in the first place. Even though he inherited the program from bush at a time when he was doing less drone killing, if his presidency were to be extended, you don't see it feasible that someone who instigated the war would eventually get them up to those numbers? That is how war works. It's a gradual turning up the intensity. Once again, I'm not justifying or defending, I'm stating a fact. Any other politician would have done the same thing

    This is an example of one of those "fucked up things obama is doing", and one aspect of something getting worse does not invalidate another aspect that is getting less worse. You could say the same thing about things like NDAA. Yes, they didn't exist BEFORE Obama, but now they do that means that he made it WORSE, right? Which isn't even a really good argument, because he votes for these things to appease the RIght Majority in the House. Politics are a tug of war. Pull some, give some. That's not sympathizing, that's fact. I'm not saying Obama is UNDOING any harm. I did say that "for every bad one, he makes a few good decisions" which is admittedly not the right choice of words and for that I apologize. What I meant was, his stances on certain issues are closer to ideal than could-not-possibly-be-further. He's increasing more environmental and health standards, he supports gay marriage, etc. Not many to choose from, but SOME is more than NONE.

    Once again, the argument isn't that is Obama is doing good. The argument is that he is making things worse more slowly overall than a right wing politician. Less bad is not the same thing as "Better", and that's what you're not getting. This isn't even about a specific politician, it's about letting a faction take power. Ideally, if everyone voted and everyone voted democrat, fundamental republicans would lose their influence in politics, and then we could have a center right politician (like obama) against a center politician (????), and from there begin to see incremental influences of something that resembles a left faction.



    You were applying a single, specific example to a broad category. One example does not constitute the entirety. That doesn't change the validity of my statement. So let me ask you again: Does every nonprofit have blood on it's hands? Every one?

    What do you do for a living? And what are you doing to directly impact a change you want to see in the world?
     
  19. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    In 2004 an Aboriginal man was beaten to death by a police officer. There have been numerous such Aboriginal deaths in custody, but this one was different, it was the first time in Australia's history that a police officer was charged for the death. Why? Because there were riots on the island where it took place. The murderer, Chris Hurley, was eventually acquitted, given a promotion and $100,000, whilst the 'leader' of the riots was sent to jail for a few years. Such is the legal system.

    Yr basically saying that sure, Obama is doing some bad things, but if he wasn't then the Republicans would be doing it WORSE! This is merely speculative. Some things are probably a little better, some worse, overall there is fuck all difference.
    Moreover, yr encouraging people to vote on the basis "[Obama] is making things worse more slowly". Why would you bother? Are you so cynical that the social actions aiming to change the world you encourage are merely attempts at slowing down our own destruction?

    A rather large example, yes. 'Mission Australia' claims to assist more than 300,000 Australians. Further, Mission Australia's CEO, Toby Hall, was the former head of Australia's largest charity - World Vision. Also mentioned as a major benefactor of the privatisation of the Australian welfare system is The Salvation Army. So it is not a story about some pissy little dodgy charity, but rather about some of Australia's biggest and most reputable ngos; it is a reflection of the dual shifts from State provided social welfare in Australia to privatised social welfare and of the restructuring of large ngo bodies along business models. "What Toby’s analysis boils down to is a call for Government to support the enactment by MA of stricter disciplinary measures upon its clients. In brief, the suspension of their welfare payments should they fail to meet the corporation’s ‘activity tests’. In prosaic terms, Toby is asking for a bigger stick with which to beat the unemployed."
    So we see that the CEO of one of Australia's largest and most respectable NGOs reflect the tendency for such NGOs (increasingly organised according to the same economically liberal models as large corporations) to act not to help the poor, but to discipline them.

    You ask that like it matters. It doesn't. Are the ideas of a social justice lawyer more valuable than those of a dishpig? Do you think a lot of people have much choice about where they work, or are our choices limited? Isn't the fact that many people are forced to work boring/dangerous/socially damaging jobs for shit pay part of the problem?

    how big is yours?

    edit: oh yeah, I put some moar links in one of my earlier posts.
     
  20. 40oz Punk

    40oz PunkMember Forum Member


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    Jul 19, 2011
     
    You missed my point again, and I think you lack understanding of economics. I don't have time right now, but I'll finish this "argument" later. :D

    You're a fucking ignorant bastard, with all due respect. :D Read about how the mind of the slaves became so easily controllable due to the lack of education. How their "individuality was lost due to an anorexic consciousnesses." Don't just argue blankly without any knowledge of what you're saying. One must first learn to later understand. As to the central committee... I'm still in denial of weather anarchism works or not. Everything I've learn leads me to the understanding that it ISN'T possible, But my believes still say it is. What's best for my people, is what it's best for me.