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Jello Biafra on 'Nazi Punks' and hate speech

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by ungovernable, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yeah, Russia's probably the worst, and some of the ol' eastern bloc from my understanding.
    Beyond that, it's hardly suprising that there are acts of despicable violence - either by organisations, individuals affiliated with such organisations or lone fuckwits influenced by such politics - given what Nutzism and Fascism are. Mass shootings in Norway, the US, Germany, assasinations in Russia, attacks in Greece and so on, in just recent memory. The question is then how to stop such groups/individuals organising and carrying out such actions, I think we should view the actions/laws of the State/s on the basis of whether they actually do this.
     
  2. Manufactured Consent

    Manufactured ConsentMember Forum Member


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    The answer is certainly not to censor them. That way they only play the victim card and get bonus points by the media. Answer their claims with logic and reason, fuck, even introduce them to immigrants, let them talk to one-another. If you are a white-supremacist and your only flow of information are by other white-geno-tards, of course you're gonna believe all brown-ish people are bad and trying to take over your country.

    Then we get nutters like Breivik and Peter Mangs who think "their" nation is being taken over by a conspiracy of muslims. I didn't see AFA stop Mangs from killing several immigrants over a period of time... :@

    That doesn't mean I don't support anti-racist rallies and protest marches to show them that fascism is not going to be accepted.
     
  3. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    So what ? They're always gonna play victims anyway, no matter what we do... And they're not gonna convert anyone just because they look like victims

    And actually, i don't think nazis are getting bonus points by medias in Germany because it's illegal.

    You really live in a fantasy world if you think you can still reason the nazis. Maybe it's you who never faced a real nazi and "your only flow of information are only by other comrades"

    What the fuck could they have done ? Killed him ?

    In the world we currently live in, it's up to the state to deal with these individuals.

    Not accepted ? You just said we should let them continue to spread their hate... So what's the point of protesting ? Just saying "we don't agree" but not acting ?
     
  4. Manufactured Consent

    Manufactured ConsentMember Forum Member


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    Yes Sverige Demokraterna have gained lots of approval thanks to being "censored" and "harassed" by the media. The media has aided them all the way to the Riksdag, because what all this media coverage does without debates, is to make them martyrs. Good job now we have white nationalists taking decisions over our country.

    I live on the fucking countryside, of course I've encountered narrow-minded bigoted people. I've talked my friend into stop being a homophobe and my mother to stop severely disliking Somali immigrants, and I myself used to be an Islamophobe. There's your fucking reasoning, what the fuck have you done?? You yourself seem to be pretty unreasonable yourself.

    It's up to the state to deal with these individuals? Hahaha yeah they strive every day to get rid of racism. :lmao:
    Just look into the case in Germany I provided, the cops really put all their effort into stopping those nazis.

    The point of protesting is to show that most of their beloved "master-race" don't sympathize with their fucked morals.
     
  5. AnarchoThrash

    AnarchoThrashMember Forum Member


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    Then what is happening in Serbia, Bulgaria or Greece?

    They get a point cause it looks like they are fighting against this system which is bullshit and this doesn't stop nazis from forming a party or recruiting people, if you think so check NPD and how many people they usually gather.

    I live in a Balkan country in which nazis have gained lots of power just because they look like victims, immigrants get attacked everyday (many times fatally). This has been happening since they weren't a legal group and the authorities always ignored incidents like these so your argument is invalid.

    You just live in your microcosm (Canada) that nazis are almost non-existent, and no I won't support state laws that actually make nazis stronger by making them look like victims. Making them so called "illegal" doesn't actually mean that they don't get supported, finally your point about supporting a goverment/state law should make you wonder if you're either a democrat or an anarchist.
     
  6. feltryck

    feltryckNew Member New Member


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    Compared to a lot of European countries sverigedemokraterna (The Sweden democrats) are still pretty marginalized. The thing is that the Sweden democrats and similar right-wing populist movements really enjoy playing victims and martyrs, they will always complain about the media situation no matter what it looks like. just look athe right-wing in the USA. They have the control over Fox News and a lot of other similar major news sources but still comapling about the "liberal media".
    But what they really want is to be seen as a legitimate political party. What they're basically trying to do by playing the martyr card is tor infulence other people and the media to be more tolernat of their opinions,thus moving the political spectrum closer to their views and coming closer to be seen as a legitimate political alternative. fortunalety for us the sweden democrats have doing a pretty poor job so far compared to the rest of europe and pretty much all of
    our neighbor countries.
    I've had similar expeirences like you with friends , often from the country side and with a white working class background, having islamophobic views and sympatizing with the right wing on matters of immigration. I think that to understand why we are seeing these kind of movements gaining strenght all across Europe you have to look beyond the specific immigration policies and media situations of different countries. Pretty much every country in Europe has growing racist rigt-wing movements nowadays even if some of them have almost no immigrants and a very right-wing media while have more immigration and a media that is less right-wing.
    A large part of the answer to why a lot of people are turning to these movements are probably to be found in the failure of the labour movement to mobilize around class issues and it's failure to defend the working class from the attacks of neo-liberalism.
    When no one talks about class conflict you'll have people letting out their aggressions and desperation in issues centered around race and culture instead.
    If you read swedish this is a very interesting book about the situation in Norway which touches upon these issues. It really helped me put some of my own experiences with racism in new light. http://www.celanders.se/hogerpop.htm
     
  7. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Well, I guess you're from Bulgaria or Romania since there are no problems with immigrants in Serbia, Croatia, BiH or Slovenia ( we're talking about nazis harassing others, not state laws banning immigrants). And the last bigger incident I heard about in Serbia was violence on last gay pride. And that's more or less it.( There are some fight over Kosovo, but they are so freaking small and insignificant, not even worth mentioning) There are couple of football team hooligans, who represent themselves as chetnicks, but in reality they are unorganized mass of idiots who just want to fight. Of course there are nazis who represent threat, but compared to Russia or USA it's nothing. I've never seen nazi rally here. I must admit that probably 65% of Croats, Serbs or Bosnians are patriotic, but noting extream ( and we're talking about extrems here).
    And about Bulgaria, last thing i've heard is their nationalists ( who are btw. guess what - football hooligans ) are coming to BiH to have fight ( http://static.klix.ba/media/images/vije ... 4.2_mn.jpg ). And AGAIN, nothing happened. And if you live in Balkan country, you probably know that nazis didn't get power because they look like victims but because almost all government is right wing oriented and doesn't want to admit that we have problem with nationalism. Starting from HDZ in Croatia, SNS with Tomislav Nikolic in Serbia Jobbik in Hungary,Golden Dawn in Greece etc.

    I think we went off-topic here. Free speech shouldn't be given to nazis, and antifa should spread the word of equality and solidarity better so that people don't even have to think about right wing scums. Giving them free speech only makes our situation worse and allows them to recruit more and more people with their ideology ( since, imo, we are outnumbered )
     
  8. AnarchoThrash

    AnarchoThrashMember Forum Member


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    I don't care about nazis's free speech, free speech might even be when a nazi openly spreads his ideas and you do nothing cause you think that he should be free to tell whatever he wants which I don't agree but I won't support any state laws, end of the story.
     
  9. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Manufactured Consent, so in your so-called "anarchist" society you would tolerate neonazi protests because prohibitting it would supposedly make them martyrs and help their cause ? :lmao:
     
  10. AnarchoThrash

    AnarchoThrashMember Forum Member


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    Stop claiming things I never said, the argument was that according to you to be antinazi/anarchist you have to support state and goverment (laws). I don't want to repeat it again after this post, as an anarchist I won't support any of their laws, the way you're thinking is like I should call cops for help anytime I have problem with nazis. If you want to fool yourself do it, I realise that in fact nazis get supported from the state instead of having a war with them (both are enemies and we won't co-operate with any of them).

    PS:You didn't answer anything, just made a personal attack.
     
  11. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    If you don’t want or accept Nazi’s or any hate group in your community, organizing or rallying somewhere for whatever reason, well then stop them!

    I think they call it DIRECT ACTION! :D

    FUCK THE STATE AND IT'S LAWS!
     
  12. AnarchoThrash

    AnarchoThrashMember Forum Member


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    I totally have to agree with you, we won't ever co-operate with the state, fuck their laws.
     
  13. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Learn to read before answering meaningless stuff. My last post was addressed to Manufactured Consent and it was a QUESTION (notice the question mark) not a claim.

    Wow what a big load of bullshit here. First i never claimed you HAVE to support it, and i didn't even say i supported it. I said it would be counter-productive to fight the anti-nazi actions taken by the state since anarchists can't deal with it because WE DON'T LIVE IN AN ANARCHIST SOCIETY. In an anarchist society, we would just decide what to do through direct democracy and then probably vote that we don't want neonazism in our community. But currently, the communities doesn't have the mandate to deal with neonazism. STATE DOES.

    Ok, so you're not supporting anti-murder laws and anti-rape laws ? Stop being a fucking idiot, even if we're anarchists we can admit that SOME laws are NECESSARY in the system we CURRENTLY LIVE IN. Those laws WOULDN'T be needed in an ANARCHIST society but we DON'T live in an anarchist society.
    In an anarchist society we wouldn't need cops and laws to apply the rules voted by the community but CURRENTLY WE DO.

    Yeah right, come back telling that to me if your mother gets raped and your father gets killed.

    No i asked a question, which you failed to answer, so you didn't answer neither.

    I will repeat it again :

    In the anarchist society you are preaching, would you give free speech to nazis ? Would you tolerate their protests ? The way you're thinking, neonazis would be allowed to organize hate protests in our communities and freely intimidate ethnic minorities because it's what you call "free speech" and doing otherwise would just victimise them.
    Stop dodging the question, this is the real debate, because if you pretend you wouldn't tolerate neonazism inside anarchist societies then it doesn't makes sense to fight against it when the state does exactly the same thing.
     
  14. AnarchoThrash

    AnarchoThrashMember Forum Member


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    You keep talking about free speech, if nazis organize hate protests we have to organize antiprotests and fight against them which is so simple.

    We don't need and won't request goverment's help to counter-attack nazis, they are the ones that need their help.
     
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Wow and once again you dodge the questions and ignore all the arguments i brought up, keep repeating the same bullshit over and over again... Debating with you and wasteing my time answering your idiotic arguments is useless.
     
  16. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Bottom line...

     
  17. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    [​IMG]
     
  18. AnarchoThrash

    AnarchoThrashMember Forum Member


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    I have known the site for a while and registered during Crass issue, hopefully to make some discussions but you can't keep it up without trying to offend people with different opinions.

    You never faced a real nazi (especially in Canada) so go to write a story from your pc fucking no lifer. You're a worthless piece of shit that is online 24/24 and has nothing else to do apart from arguing and not accepting people's different opinions.

    Keep believing that anarchism can be achieved through goverments and their laws.

    I leave your site now.


    FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  19. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Bye Bye..now... :ecouteurs:
     
  20. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Should Ungovernable know not to participate in this type of debate?

    Why did you participate in this debate Ungovernable?

    These were the people involved in this conversation…

    Ungovernable – 3717 Posts
    Ivanovich – 599 Posts
    Anarcho Trash - 22 Posts
    Crustybeckham – 184 Posts
    Bakica – 704 Posts
    Mister man – 3 Posts
    Manufactured Consent – 13 Posts
    Butcher – 2068 Posts
    Feltryck – 2 Posts

    Just asking…
     
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