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Islam and Anarchism

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Xiv666, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 7, 2009
     



    YEAH!!! :thumbsup:
     
  2. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    tell him to read other religion's bible coz i did and i follow what is logic and what is right.
    and fuck all the wrongs.
    sorry for my bad english coz im from a different country.
    yeah there is similarity.
    check out my latest posts.
     
  3. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 7, 2009
     
    „Deus lo vult" was the battlecry during the historical christian crusades - the muslims answered "Allahu akbar"
    both slogans mean "god wants it".
    bellum iustum is the latin christian term for "just war" - dschihad is the arabic term for "just war".

    actually ''allahu akbar'' means god is the greatest/most powerfull.
     
  4. killedbydeath

    killedbydeathActive Member Forum Member


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    Sep 14, 2010
     
    an anarchist society doesn't have to preclude people with religious ideals. it can't. controlling another's thoughts or belief system is fascism at its finest.

    if someone wants to work towards an anarchist society while worshiping muhammed (jesus, the earth or whatever) and realizing the inherent injustice in religious hierarchies, the subjugation of women and any other practices that encroach on the free will of others, then you have to let them.

    it may not make sense to me, but it doesn't have to.
     
  5. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    1. if you want to know you have to search it yourself.christian and islam have the similarities 2.

    2. yes they justify crimes against mankind but not the government way and using bad stuff for a good thing is good in islam.
    like lie to people for your sake is not a sin if youre right.
     
  6. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    i just wanna say thanx to all of you for the logical replys.
    and if you wanna know further,try reading qoran coz i didnt finish reading it also. :p
    thanx alot for all of you anarcho punx!youre the best!
    UP THE PUNX!!! :thumbsup:
     
  7. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    sorry, but fascism is a lot more than controlling thinking or believe, and I think that tolerating religion in an anarchist society would be the same as tolerating fascists then.
    Religions and fascism have one thing in common: By means of a makeup "truth" they are used to keep people in line, divert them from their real needs and to control and manipulate them - for me as an anarchist: intolerable.
    Religion and fascism worked well together more than once in history and I would not tolerate either of them to do again.

    I guess if religious people would realize the true nature of their believe, they would not be able to believe further.
    non-existence of god, the role organized religion played in history, scientific evidence in sociology and religious studies about the bible for example, rewritten more than once to fit the actual situation of the jewish people later the christianity - so what's left to believe in?
    If you want to do good things - do it for yourself and for the people, why still cling to fictional miracle-man jesses?
     
  8. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    monolithic bloc (mono = one, lithic = stone/rock) bloc means a system, that appears "monolithic" from without, and fundamentally prevents any attribution of reform options to individuals and therefore the personification of political alternatives in individuals or groups.
    most famous example - the communist regime in the former ussr, allowing only one party one leading central comittee, no deviating from the official party line and suppressing every kind of reformism.
    islam has two or three mayor branches - sunites and shiites and many more regional orientations - i think you will know more about this multitude of various groups than i know.

    i don't think that the muslims war against the us-imperialists is the same struggle as the anarchists vs. the us.
    the muslim groups fighting in afghanistan and iraq aren't anarchist - they fight for an independent system of government - a new state. after the russians left afghanistan 1989 there was a new islam-orientated government in kabul.
    anarchists won't develop a new autoritarian system after abolishing the current government.

    yes, you are right, i mixed it up somehow, sorry for this mistake - so what's the arabic slogan for "god wants..."?
    i wrote it down somewhere when i stumbled over the similiarity to "deus lo vult", but lost the paper.
     
  9. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Bit of a history lesson here:
    After the fascist military was defeated in Catalonia in july 1936 the people practically abolished the ultraconservative and pro-fascist catholic church, burning down churches and convents, executing many catholic priests and even nuns because of their support for the fascists.
     
  10. killedbydeath

    killedbydeathActive Member Forum Member


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    the catholic church at the time was a key contributor to the fascist organization. people on here are so close minded about their beliefs. people can have religious and spiritual beliefs without putting them into an authoritative, hierarchical structure. in an anarchist society who would be the one to enforce a complete lack of religion? the rule of law? the rule of the masses? effectively killing anyone with their own world view or thought process?

    just because religion has eisted in one way in the past, does not mean that it is forever doomed to be the same.
     
  11. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    right, the spanish catholic church was kind of extrem, but thats the reason why the spanish people, inspired by anarchist ideals, burned down church installations and executed priests. this abolishing/erasing of the christian belief was not organized by the anarchist organisations, it was a widespread reaction of the people themselves against the repressive character of the church.

    lets take todays secular germany for an less extreme example:
    the german state and the churches in general are separated, kind of a bad joke: the still valid "reichskonkordat" is a contract concluded between the german nazis and the vatican in july 1933.

    in germany the catholic church isn't part of the state, but because the two important conservative parties are "christian-democrats" and "christian-social", the church uses this close relation and its "moral authority"/the bible to not only to reprobate progress in society like birthcontrol, abortion, divorce or gay marriage directly, but to influence the voters at elections towards the conservatives too.
    the conservative parties reward this support given by the church with repressive legislation following the demands of this well organized minority - call it at least lobbyism?
    years ago some organisations promoted the removal of christian crosses hanging on the class rooms walls at school, their main argument was that germany today is a multicultural society and non-christians shouldn't be forced to learn under a christian symbol. hell broke loose...
    the following "christian" campaing was like a crusade against laicism and the downfall of the occident including the "german" lead-culture, homophobic and antisemitic propaganda inclusive.
    consequence: after a short guest performance by the social democrats we are back to conservative rule, we are back on very strictly limited rights concerning abortion and divorce, christian crosses are still decorating the class rooms, to be a confessing gay is not that healthy again...and... and...
    surprised that the scandal about catholic priests abusing young boys for years doesn't make it in the late news?
    and this is only the political/public part.

    for the individual part i completely agree with gobbledigooks:
    as an anarchist, i am an atheist too, not because of dogmatism, but because i am convinced that there is no god, no religion, no good or evil in the religious sense and i feel confirmed in this believe by science and history. to me, religion is a sometimes dangerous superstition, hindering the progress of humanity.
    we were not created to follow some weird masterplan, obey, suffer and follow others rules, to be judged for heaven or hell by antiqued traditions - but we can be the creators of a world worth to live in.
    i think an anarchist majority/society will educate people to enable them to take over full responsibility for themselves and the community they live in, and for me this includes the abolition of religion too.

    no executions, no enforcing, no laws (maybe social contracts to prevent the development of sects), just education again and again until the last person afraid of the dark gets a grip on him-/herself and takes over responibility and selfdetermination, to be an equal among equals
    and instead of burning the churches, we should clean them of all this sadomasochistic stuff, crosses and baptismal fonts and use them for something constructive - what about more punk gigs?
     
  12. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    or indoor skate-parks.... <3
     
  13. killedbydeath

    killedbydeathActive Member Forum Member


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    Sep 14, 2010
     
    best idea yet.

    i realize what you are saying about education and that is a huge part but your definition very closely approaches brainwashing techniques (at the very least they will surely be interpreted as such by those trying to be educated, if not (ironically) compared to the efforts of colonizers to impress their religious views on the colonized).

    this quagmire shows up frequently when thinking through the intricacies and practicality of creating a truly free world. how do you free the masses while preserving their free will?

    i think you have to let people gradually come to these realizations; too forceful of an introduction will be violent (systemically, intellectually) on the part of the educators and inevitably produce violent revolt. it think the most effective way to introduce a truly free society is to actually enforce the separation of church and state with some sort of absolute ban on legislating any morality. anything that does not directly affect the health or well being of another, or the community (environment included) must be legal.
     
  14. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    i think you can't do it with seperation of church and community only - see the german example, the connection between conservative politics, the organized religions repressive moral and the ambition to use their influence to prevent progress in society is too strong.
    the authoritarian character of the church will always tend to gather followers "following the faith" ect. - and even if they follow out of their own will - where is their freedom then? voluntary slavery - no thanks, for me not acceptable. (something to think about: the cage of my neighbor is my cage too - buddhistic saying)

    unlike the colonizers, my aim is freedom for the individual as the base for a free society, not the abuse of people to benefit from them. unlike the missionaries i don't use superstition and false truth to subdue, i am convinced by science, history and my own experience that anarchism (atheism included) is the way to change and build the world without being bound by selfishness, reject of responsibility, superstition ect.

    how to free the masses and make them able to use their free will? - spread knowledge and fight hierarchy, repressive propaganda, superstition, racism ect., give an example how anti-authoritarian/atheist living works - a slow and long way to go, but the only one possible.

    again, science and history proove, that religion is made up out of ambition by man and not god-given and i think every individual with a healthy brain can understand this - thats why the system is so eager to brainwash people with religious propaganda from an early age on.

    i hope it will not be necessary to keep it "legal", i think thats exactly what anarchism is about: do everything for the being of another, the community and the environment you live in - out of your responsibility for yourself and the people around you - a bavarian saying: a honest man don't need no laws.

    i don't want to brainwash people, even if it would be for their own good, so no endless indoctrination - but a constant resistance against the superstitions still believed by my neighbors, regardless if christian, muslim or whatever, or our tough grandmothers still struggling for the safety of our daughters souls - and by the way: the young girls regard churches as scary - because of this poor naked guy still hanging from the cross... :ecouteurs:
    right now they feel pity for him, and i hope they will never believe that he freed them from sin by ending up this way...

    about the skate parks - i never tried skating before, so it's one more reason for the revolution.
     
  15. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    yes theyre not fighting for freedom or peace coz theyre not real muslims.
    the afghanistan war is about drugs just like vietnam.
    real muslims fight against government.
    some of them doesnt know what anarchy is.
    and some anarchist doesnt know what islam is.
     
  16. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 7, 2009
     

    but not with the qoran.
     
  17. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    sorry.i dont remember.
    i just know arabic a little. :p
     
  18. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May be true, I don't know enough about qoran, because you're right about:

    But the qoran suffers from the same phenomen like the bible: Every muslim reads the book like he wants to. Example:
    chador in afghanistan and iran, head scarf in turkye - and each time founded and justified with the same book.

    And the strategic safeguard and control of the region with worlds greatest reserve on oil, not to forget...
     
  19. Xiv666

    Xiv666Active Member Forum Member


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    And the strategic safeguard and control of the region with worlds greatest reserve on oil, not to forget...[/quote]

    haha!yeah.
     
  20. kazmacılar

    kazmacılarMember Forum Member


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    May 7, 2011
     
    i live in an islamic country (turkey) and we are just laughing those "anarşist müslüman" thing. We've seen too many "different" kinds of ideologies,like "I'm Turk,and Muslim and thanks to Allah for I'm a communist","Anarcho-Kemalism","Socialist-Kemalism-Islamism" etc. and these are just bullshit ;) And i ensure you, Islam is the smuggling way of Turkish capitalism.
     
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