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Is punk more a subculture or social movement?

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by ryan1980, Aug 6, 2010.

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  1. ryan1980

    ryan1980Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Subculture being a culture that rejects the mainstream and creates its own distinct norms inside of whatever culture it resides in, and social movement being people who are organized outside of social institutions to bring about political or social change?

    I think its more of a subculture and it lacks enough structural support to be a bonafied social movement. I should say that I would like it to be a movement but paradoxically I think the absence of uniformity in educating the youth about being more critical in their thinking and ethical in their actions is whats holding it back.

    I waver back and forth on this because uniformity in education could easily lead to indoctrination, even if you're teaching them analytical tactics that preps them for every day life.

    The ties between anarchism (the ideal sociatal outcome) and punk are there, and abundant but DIY distribution when little is ever peer reviewed or is heavily biased/opinionated mirrors the mainstream and lessens the overall goal of setting widely held objectives to topple institutions. Which is why I don't think its a viable vehicle for a social movement.

    What are your thoughts?
     

  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    punk is a sub-culture, anarcho-punk is a counter-culture and part of the revolutionary movement
     
  3. ryan1980

    ryan1980Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Well anarcho punks are anarchists first, who just happen to like or involve themselves in the punk scene. Punks simply look fondly on anarchism. How then do anarchist punks teach the novice punks about anarchism in a holistic comprehensive way and have them respond in a "propaganda by deed" fashion without a heavy dose of narrowed topics thats' prone to dogmatics?
     
  4. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I disagree. I'm not an "anarcho punk," I'm a punk who happens to be an anarchist. I think punk is not a vehicle for social revolution as its a subculture unto itself. Anarcho punk is too loose of a term to describe ones beliefs as many people associated with anarcho punk didn't believe in anarchism at all: Apostles, Rudimentary Peni etc. To claim anarcho punk is part of a revolutionary movement is pure tosh. Squatting, making stencils and throwing Molotov cocktails at cop vans isn't anarchism.

    Show me one punk who were an "anarchist" before they listened to punk music and I'll give you my record collection
     
  5. ryan1980

    ryan1980Experienced Member Experienced member


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    That's not exactly I meant, punks who are anarchist and anarchists who are in the punk scene are of the same breed, but when it comes down to beliefs and values, one would speak of anarchistic values and not soley of punk 'culture' as an end.

    There is a huge segment in punk culture that believes in the ideals of anarchism but doesn't believe it's viable.

    I would have a hard time showing you one because the resurgence of anarchism is directly because of punk.
     
  6. deadsmart

    deadsmartExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    To the original topic:
    I would say that punk is a subculture that helps push and support different social movements.
    Lets say theres a "social movement" against racism somwhere.
    There will be punks in this social movement, but also people from other "subcultures" as well.

    And to the sub-topic: I most definately got into anarchism AFTER I started listening to punk music. I say music comes first and then you tend to look for bands in that genre that have similar views as your own. Not always but most times.
    If there's anarcho-country I sure as hell won't be listening just because its about anarchy haha.
     
  7. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    :thumbsup:
     
  8. Adam182

    Adam182Experienced Member Experienced member


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    i was a anarchist before i ever listened tp anarcho punk music :D
     
  9. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    .... sure ya were mate
     
  10. Adam182

    Adam182Experienced Member Experienced member


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    but ididnt start understanding true anarchy untill i started listening to anarcho-punk.....actually i cant even consider myself close to punk to tell the truth
     
  11. Wheat Thix

    Wheat ThixMember New Member


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    Did you come here to troll the shit out of stupid assholes, like me? ;) Mostly I come here for amusement. I consider myself a punk, however unlike most punks, I'm not an elitist asshole about things that don't matter. I hate how it seems that punk nowadays consists of apathetic assholes who care more about drinking beer rather than caring about shit like civil rights, corporatism, and pollution. I also hate how elitist punks are about music. Saying, "Oh that bands a sellout," or "If you listen to that band, you're a poser."

    I say, if you like a band, listen to them. If you like this kind of music, listen to it. If you want to have consensual sex with an adult, fucking do it. If you want to dress up nice, or if you want to wear rags, do it. Isn't punk about doing what you will and not giving a shit about what other people think? Apparently not anymore....
     
  12. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Take yr beer, and doh-si-doh, the rotten state has got to go!

    YEEEEHAW!
     
  13. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    why can't it be both? does it really need to be labeled and nitpicked?
     
  14. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Anarcho-punk is part of anarchism, and anarchism IS a revolutionary movement. It is revolutionary, just like anarcho-skinheads or whatever.

    Of course some anarcho-bands are not radical activists... so what ? Not everyone associated with anarchism is a real anarchist. Same thing with anarcho-punks or anarchists.

    You are an anarchist punk, so that's called an anarcho-punk.

    If anarcho-punk is not about being punk and anarchist then what is your definition of anarcho-punk ?


    You owe me a record collection.

    Are you saying that all anarchists became anarchists because of punk music ? This stupid. And anyway, even if it was true it would just prove i am right by saying anarcho-punk is part of a revolutionary movement since it help to convert people to anarchism.

    You were an anarchist when you were listening to Blink182 ?

    You are the living proof that punk is dead and that this movement is all about what you are critizing in this quote. If you want to have a minimum of credibility, take off this Johnny Rotten avatar. He's the perfect example of an idiot who prefer to drink beer, make money and fund corporatism instead of fighting the real fight.
     
  15. squatpunk

    squatpunkMember Forum Member


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    unfortunately punk is still a mass-culture and not really an socialmovement or subculture.
    then again it is a vehicle for pissed off, out of place kids (like myself) too find a place they feel like they fit in and through that come to understand that the world is a fucked up place. and that you can change it, and that it must be changed, and become anarchists. so why i said unfortunately punk is still a mass-culture, where i life mohawks are trendy spiked arm bands and belts are for sale in fashion stores and you can bye pre-fab t-shirts with sparkly punky print.

    ok wheat thix what the fuck are you talking about?????? elitist is what way about what things that dont matter.and johnny rotten well i ungovernable said it already.
     
  16. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    I think all punks were somewhat anarchists before punk, that's why they like punk. Yet, now we face the exploitation of punk. Lady gaga, Blink 182, Hot Topic, "alternative" rock... the list of traitors goes on. They use our angst to sell us cute products that appeal to our liking. Yet, these things still get grouped in with punk rock, even though they don't hold true to the original spirit and morals of punk rock. Selling fucking little accessories sporting a circle A is not anarchist in itself, yet, it makes people think. Try to remember the bands that first got you into punk, whether they were commercial sellouts or not. They embodied the feelings of angst that we all share, in some way. So I could call these money-making punk bands traitors, or possibly main stream liberators.
    In the end, punks just strive to be themselves and do whatever the fuck they want. So if a band considers themselves to be punk, they are most likely for the social movement. If the so-called social movement is in the business of opening people's minds to new and strange possibilities, then maybe we should focus on that being the main objective.

    Also...
    Fighting the real fight? Funny, it seems like the only fights you ever pick are to glorify your own ego. Fuck you and your bullshit propaganda. You may be an anarchist, but you're also a fake bastard who obviously aspires to be more of a dictator than a liberator.

    It's pretty clear was he was trying to say. He wasn't saying that being Johnny Rotten is a bad thing, cuz who really fuckin thinks that? Leave Johnny out of this because its pretty obvious that punk culture is and has always been alot about doing drugs, but now there's so much focus on it that it's sickening. I agree that being drunk all the time, getting as drunk as you fucking can, and sniffing random powder you found and the bus stop, is endorsed by multiple punk rock bands. Can't you admit that doing those things is distracting from the political side of things? Maybe just a little? It's not a bad point that he made at all.
     
  17. Shuei

    ShueiExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I know multiple anarchist's who like Hip Hop, Dup-Step and Reggae...
     
  18. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I was anarchist before I listened to punk, so send me your record collection, thanks. On OP though, neither, punk is just a state of mind.
     
  19. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    What the fuck are you talking about ? Shut the fuck up, you are a fucking idiot. It is a FACT that the sex pistols and especially johnny rotten care only about making money, fashion and drinking beer rather than fighting the real fight against capitalism.

    How the fuck am i glorifing my ego ? Stop saying bullshit. I don't give a fuck about my internet ego and i really dont know why you would think that.

    You don't know what to say, now you are saying i want to be a dictator hahaha what a fucking joke. This is the only forum on the internet that is auto-managed by the members and you still find a reason to call me a dictator.

    You are just angry because you were pointed out that you are an ignorant anarchist wannabe who refuse to read anything.

    I remember you said you understand you don't belong to this forum. What are you waiting to get the fuck out ?

    You are so stupid that you didn't even understand what i was trying to say. Being drunk and taking drugs definatly has nothing to do with the fight of punks and anarchists, i was just pointing out that he is contradictory because he has an avatar of someone doing exactly what he is critizing.

    Johnny Rotten is a fucking idiot who cares only about making money, funding corporate greed, making TV advertisements, etc... The sex pistols sucks, and johnny rotten sucks. Pretending punks have to care more about the real fight while wearing a johnny rotten avatar is a big fucking contradiction.
     
  20. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    OFF-TOPIC:

    KAAOS-82, I want that record collection.

    And, by the way, how did you even find sense on what you wrote? There's a lot of hip-hop, reggae or anthems etc. which express anarchist beliefs. I mean, do you really think that the Spanish Revolutionaries in 1936 or the Makhnovtchinas were "hxc f'n punx"? What a sight that'd be :lmao:

    ON-TOPIC:

    Like ungov said earlier, in the first post, punk's a subculture. Anarchism is the social movement, anarcho-punk is just a way to spread the message.

    And about drugs disctracting from political action, well, I must say that when I started smoking pot it opened a lot of doors, to me. I started dealing with the law (cops), started to know new and different people, started to go to squats, know squatters, know homeless people, homeless teens. All of that while not being a punk, btw, just when I was starting to get into anarchy. (before, growing up in a communist family, I thought I was one)

    In my opinion, doing drugs isn't the problem, there's so much shit out there that, sometimes, people just need a time when they can relax, alienate from all the shit happening. I don't think that that disgraces anyone, unless they let it control their lifes, which would destroy most of their personality and social living, let alone their political action...
     
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