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How far would you go from civil disobedience to become millitant

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by Rebellious twit, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Something that has been bugging me in a long time, i have had these strange thoughts, like what if and what not, its more like i see myself as a pacifist and a humanist, i have no experience with violence and i definely won't do it since i think its stupid but what if it is nessacary like for example, you are at demonstration and you see a confrontation between a few demonstrators and a riot police these people are peaceful but the police think otherwise as they look like troublemakers, would you confront them? and how, i myself would at least to stay at a peaceful level when talking to police men and women and i have no hate to them as most anarchists do however i see their point that some police officers are exploitings their power, but i would never hit anybody as long it isn't in self defence.

    So i'm asking you guys for let me figuring this out and i would like to hear you point of view and experience :thumbsup:
     

  2. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yes, well, I think you should rethink. Pacifism has done nothing good in history, as Aus-Rotten puts it 'They ignore peacful protests, but will they ignore a burning police car?'. As simple as that. Try to think of some 'revolutionaries' who were pacifist and what happened to that. And by saying that violence against state and private property is stupid you're saying that some of us who use violence against these are stupid, which is incorrect. So no, go and rethink your pacifism. When i first came here, i was a freaking hippie, I asked to much questions, I promoted peace and love, I promoted pacifism but as more as I read about certain stuff, I became aware that love and peace won't help us now.

    Peaceful level when takling to women but not when talking to men ? You have no hate for 'them' (women and police men) as most anarchists ? Are you saying that we're sexist ? Or are you sexist ? Or am I just missing the point ?
     
  3. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Do you go to demonstrations in denmark? Have you seen a line of riot cops up close? If not you should and see for yourself the "violence" a state will use to keep "Law and Order" - and keep this in mind, this "violence" the state uses is the tiny tip of a global for profit "violence" industry...

    Why are you a pacifist?
    What does pacifism mean to you?
    When people are not pacifists, what do those people do?

    What did you eat today?
    Was that food brought to you or did you acquire it through pacifist means?
    Did you drink water today?
    Where did that water come from? Did you acquire it through pacifist means?

    Or did corporations do all the "violence" required to bring you food and water today? And who were the people that experience violence to day in order for you to eat food and drink water?

    Here are 2 zines you might want to read:
    1. Derrick Jensen on Pacifism and Violence
    This zine encompasses six chapters from the second volume of Jensen's book Endgame. These chapters deal with dogmatic pacifism, direct action, and violence as a sometimes appropriate and effective tactic in radical struggles.
    http://zinelibrary.info/derrick-jensen- ... d-violence

    2. How Nonviolence Protects the State by Peter Gelderloos
    http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... -the-state
     
  4. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Well yeah i have been going to a few demonstrations, mostly peaceful, what i don't get that why police there has to be so much police there.
     
  5. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jul 21, 2012
     
     
  6. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    the first link of yours doesn't work :/
     
  7. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    The police presence or force is there to intimidate you, to scare you, so you and your crew or citizens stay in place and shut the fuck up, and do what your told. Also have this in mind, who should up with the training, equipment, and authorization from the state to use violence on people? The "protesters" or the "riot cops?"
     
  8. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Try it again, that site is buggy sometimes, its The Zine Library, the link didn't work a couple of times and then it did so try it again :p

    hers a link to the readable zine: http://zinelibrary.info/files/DJ%20on%2 ... 0web_0.pdf
     
  9. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Jul 21, 2012
     
    i have been reading a little i can see your point, i'll be reading a little more, i can see why people attend to fight militant, however i still don't think that is the only way to do something revolutionary, i believe in my peaceful ways, though this dicussion we have had have made me think a little extra more about the police.
     
  10. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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     Mexico
    haha yeah i agree, we are doing something peaceful here and now, communicating and sharing with each other, and if we lived in the same city hopefully we would be working on anti-capitalist "peaceful" projects together haha :p
     
  11. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    I recently started a civil discussion online with a Buddhist pacifist that was denouncing all violence against nazi's and racists, after one sentence where I asked in what position did he feel himself with the right to pass judgement on people who take action against nazi's when he is in a privileged and quite safe environment in affluent and almost completely white Mission Viejo in the conservative bastion of Orange County California, he responded with a barrage of insults and informed me that a douchebag like myself wouldn't last 10 minutes in Medellin Columbia where he and his family was originally from.... :lmao:. It was exhausting pointing out the flaws in his logic and the blatant contradiction between his supposed Buddhist beliefs and the constant queer-phobic taunting he was spewing towards me online...he then went on to inform me that he personally led the Occupy march in San Diego and that he was its "leader"...I ask myself if this is a "radical pacifist" at the front of the modern pacifist movement in the US no wonder they have absolutely no success in changing anything whatsoever...of course Mahatmas Gandhi bla bla bla, Martin Luther King bla bla bla, standard hero worship of admittedly great men that were only half of the given equation of change in their times, without African American radicalism and Rebel Indian Freedom Fighters an incomplete equation that uninformed fanatics have a real problem wrapping their brains around. Black Nova you and I know all too well what the reality of that movement was and what the reformists and pacifists managed to completely fuck up by turning to state politics like the complete sheep that they were....... :@
     
  12. Rosetta Stoned2

    Rosetta Stoned2Active Member Forum Member


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    Aug 16, 2011
     
    Well what about Gandhi and the Indian people? They used Civil disobedience against the British. When the British prohibited Indians from collecting or selling salt, they went down to the Arabian Sea and got there own salt. They had a boycott on British cotton which was a great source of wealth for the British. The Indian people refused to buy British goods, attend government schools, pay British taxes and participate in elections. Since the British lost money due to the actions of the Indian people the British let the Indian people have their own local self government and their own democratic elections. All of these actions were non-violent/pacifist rebellions and led to an India without the British's rule.
    So I believe Pacifism has done "great" in history, and that people can gain independence from non-violent actions. :thumbsup:
    "My history my be a little rusty". ;)
     
  13. Rebellious twit

    Rebellious twitExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Chazz i suggest you take a read on the links THEBLACKNOVA posted, it kinda explains the back story of the indian independence that there were more than just a peaceful movement, quite an interesting read might i add.
     
  14. JesusCrust

    JesusCrustExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    That was some shit. I forgot to tell you, he started coming around a bit. He read some of how non-violence supports the state, and I told him about Golden Dawn in Greece and he did some research on his own. I guess he didn't realize that actual fascism, not just being used as a blanket term for things people dont like, is so alive and blatant in many parts of the world. Cool thing about that guy is that he will actually listen to our side and check it out. He may be a knucklehead at times, but he is always open to learn.
     
  15. AlphaEagle

    AlphaEagleMember Forum Member


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    Just some relatively random thoughts on this subject:

    Most violence doesn't "reach" the people that need to feel it. In that respect, non-violence is better, but requires much more effort and provides no glory. Being part of a pacifist movement, means you will give your life without any glory. Just some chum being beaten to death by the police, rouges or idiots. It takes hundreds or even thousands to die before, maybe, things will change. The question is, what is more important: you, or your society?

    There is something quite disturbing when people claim violent action, but also acknowledge that the people in our societies need to be educated and understand change to grow and become "better". True enlightenment comes through education, examples and success. Not through violence. But again, are you your brother's keeper?

    The heralding of socialism to be the enabler of an anarchist society has been proven incorrect. I don't want to enter into any "true Scotsman" type discussions, but the rate at which socialist societies plummet into some decaying form of fascist or mono-cultural cesspool means socialism fails. At least as an enabler for free people. People are individuals, not groups. So revolutionary change, from a, and aimed at a group, comes with oppression. Even if it is temporary (which it never is). It also comes with the requirement to "conform" or suffer. Participating in that, supporting that violent change, means you contribute to the oppression of others.

    Personally, I don't think "the world" exists the way we think it works. No one is going around managing what happens to us, positive or negative. Everyone is a puppet, and as such, using violence to free yourself for the time being (hopefully your life time), is the best you can do. Violence is a personal, primal thing, there to prevent you from being eliminated. so pacifism to me is unnatural, at least to some extent. What is the value of my life, if I am not willing to defend it? How is my freedom served by me dying?
     
  16. Kobac

    KobacExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Pacifism..yeah when comes to my fellow brothers and sisters, violence when it comes to oppression.when some one hits you with a baton...shit...listen to a song called Fuck nazi sympathy.
     
  17. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    @AlphaEagle

    Do you believe in "Nothing?"
     
  18. AlphaEagle

    AlphaEagleMember Forum Member


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    Mar 18, 2013
     
    I believe "nothing" exists - somewhere in the fabric of vibrating strings. But I guess you want to know is; Do I have any values "related to something". My answer could be very convoluted, but I guess it is summarized best as: I believe in the God of Chance, with Haphazard and Ambiguity as his prophets. I am (therefore) more of an existentialist than a nihilist, philosophically speaking.

    Why?
     
  19. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Just wondering, i thought you were a "Nihilist"...or sounded like one...just curious....cheers :beer:

    I like this quote;

    "The nothing i believe in, is greater than the nothing you believe in."

    have you checked this out...

    Existentialism and Marxism viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10215
     
  20. AlphaEagle

    AlphaEagleMember Forum Member


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    Interesting quote, very similar to a statement often uttered at the (my) poker table: "my nothing is better than your nothing." My nothing exists only at the Planck length level, so yours is for sure not smaller... ;)

    Re. the Marxist critique: this is why I am not a Marxist. I fundamentally do not believe we are only because of our society. We have developed because of society, but it is not our root cause, nor does/should that acknowledgement come with any debt that needs to be repaid.

    To be honest, I sometimes feel Marxism is a bourgeois ideal for the workers. Mostly because of its collectivism. The way I see it, it (collectivism) is based on an induced interpretation of nature and human development, using constructs from society itself. It is the same reason I have difficulty to respect most vegans. But i guess all that shouldn't and doesn't belong on this thread.
     
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