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Hell on Earth (Vivisection)

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Carcass, Feb 28, 2010.

  1. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 12, 2009
     
    In the New Testament, Jesus talks a lot about heaven on Earth. While he panders to mysticists by talking about his father's kingdom in heaven and eternal rewards and all that shit, he principally emphasizes that you can actualize the kingdom of heaven on Earth through the proper moral acts. These moral acts are rituals which generate localities of what we are told is some kind of airy ultimate bliss. (Even if this program were ingenuous as Tolstoy claimed, Christ's declared agenda for human transcendence was completely bankrupt owing to its rejection of materialism and supplication to the ultimate authority of a ghost.) However, J.C. was not wrong about the potentcy of mass rituals. The alarming but obvious converse of his vision is this: the performance of certain rituals can bring localities of hell to Earth. The mass performance of those rituals can actualize the kingdom of hell.

    Vivisection is a ritual, one product of which is hell. I'm not speaking in metaphors. Man imagined hell as a realm of perfect and eternal torture and, through science, he has created it. Specifically, he creates it about 20 million times a year in the United States alone. First we tracked our victims in the forests. Then we took them to our pens. Then we bred them for our purposes. Now we design them for lives defined by torture. Ritual sacrifice has long been used to curry favor from a diety. The scientists use it no differently than the necromancers, the thamaturgists or the diviners.

    Modern science in late capitalism is shamanism plus biopower plus the cancerous expansiveness of market forces. Spellcraft becomes professionalized and what was once the pursuit of recluses and secret societies becomes the domain of a powerful and blindly ideological syndicate. Biopower has allowed this burgeoning cabal to mainline life energy down the gullet of whatever extradimensional horror they serve. Almost all of them do this unwittingly.

    [​IMG]

    Do they honestly believe they can just lock up the cages at night and go home? That they can perform the grow-scream-die ritual a million times over in a vacuum of empiricism, consequence free? That their white coats and white walls and sterile tools efface their presence and leave them abnegated of responsibility? Hell is not a place you end up because you made bad moral choices, it is a state of affairs that overtakes you. The more hell there is, the more of us are going to fit in it.

    A 500 year death cult has succeeded through warfare, poverty, drugs, violent extraction, neoliberalism, patriarchy, racism, gender fascism and the spectacular order in bringing about a generality of hell for humans and something approaching a unity of hell for the nonhuman world. 5CDC manipulates scientists as a metafront for actualizing the kingdom of hell (immanentizing the Eschaton) by refining the capacity to produce purer forms of Hell in as many localities as possible. New forms of depravity await us.

    "If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one. Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."--J. Robert Oppenheimer

    "If there's hell below, we all gonna go."--Curtis Mayfield
     

  2. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    Is there a difference between dissection and vivisection? My science class (where my teacher is a man who is definitely not any sort of morally bankrupt fiend and who I can relate with on various levels of sociopolitical ideals) is planning on dissecting frogs to better understand our own biology. It sounded fine and innocent to me. But is this frowned upon by the anti-vivisection crowd? I'm not trying to say that condescendingly i'm honestly just curious because I've never really been familiar with anti-vivisection standpoints and the only run-in with vivisection I've ever had was when my dad rejected the doctors idea of replacing patches of his stomach lining with pig stomach lining (I'm sure that vivisection was used to find out that this worked as a stomach lining alternative) in favor of a sort of mesh lining.
     
  3. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    ....And you criticize the way I talk.

    The requisite gory pictures. How predictable.....

    [/quote]

    I sometimes wonder if you honestly believe this stuff. Flowery metaphors and poetic language aside, what are you actually advocating? Are you suggesting an end to scientific progress? Or, to animal testing, even when it could save lives? What are you providing in terms of constructive solutions and ideas?
     
  4. pip

    pipMember Forum Member


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    Feb 27, 2010
     

    With dissection the animal is already dead. Vivisection involves cutting the animal open while it's still alive.
     
  5. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 22, 2009
     
    Oooohhh. I'm a fucking idiot. Thanks q:
     
  6. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
     
    good questions NGNM85, i also wonder what animal rights people propose as an alternative to animal testing as far as medications and stuff.
     
  7. pip

    pipMember Forum Member


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    Feb 27, 2010
     
    I'm all for testing on people. People are capable of consenting in a language we can understand. Animals can't.

    That said, that solution only shifts the problem, because now large pharmaceutical companies are exploiting the poor and disenfranchised.

    http://www.geari.org/alternatives-to-an ... sting.html is a pretty good link to some alternatives. I can't really say much about them myself because I haven't done enough research.

    I can say that we're frequently learning more and more about animal brains and their capacity for emotion and feeling, and the more we seem to learn, the more horrendous vivisection looks.
     
  8. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 31, 2010
     
    Yeah there are alternatives not that it matters much anyway its about power and money, not medical progress.
     
  9. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
     
    i don't see how disection and vivisection has anything to do with power. feel free to explain to my incomprehending thought process.
     
  10. pip

    pipMember Forum Member


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    Feb 27, 2010
     
    Pharmaceutical companies continue to use animal testing because it's cheaper than the alternatives. It's the typical anti-capitalist argument. Capitalists stand on the backs of the workers (or in this case, the animals) in an attempt to acquire even more wealth and social power than they already have.

    At least I think that's what was meant.
     
  11. Rabbit

    RabbitExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    It's a simple power dynamic. Their tests aren't regulated by anything but their own minds, so they do whatever they feel like doing. The test subject has no rights or power if they happen to be an animal. In human testing, this isn't true, because there are still standards, regulations, and more rigorous ethical considerations.
    Example 1: Drug X kills 10 monkeys. Go get 10 more.
    Example 2: Drug Y kills 10 people. Go explain to a governmental body what the hell happened. There will probably be legal ramifications.

    An animal also can't refuse to take part in testing or explain, "hey, this drug cures my seasonal allergies, but boy does it make my eyes burn."
     
  12. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
     
    i agree killing animals for the sake of killing them is cruel and unnecisary, but again i digress, the animals don't have a concept of being, or rational thought. Animals are below humans, we are not equal, which doesn't really mean we should be cruel to them, but it is a way of being. If animals had the same intelligence as humans, and means of expressing it, maybe they could rule the world in a better way then we are, but that's not how it is.

    also, if youi release an animal into the wild that was bred into captivity, isn't that cruel, as it will have no concept of providing it's own life? won't it's instincts be deviated as a result of life in captivity? what is the solution to this?

    Also, what about animals that live off eating other animals? do u attempt to turn them into vegans?
     
  13. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 31, 2010
     
    Money is power, init.
     
  14. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 31, 2010
     
    Why are other animals below humans? Humans may be smarter in some ways, is this your only criteria, or is it just cos you happen to be human? How far you take this, like are smart people worth more than dumb people, and if not, why not? Anyway, don't quite see relevance but I never tried to turn a member of another species into a vegan. It aint within my domain, I am human, not a cat, frog or god. I am only qualified to comment on, or judge, my own species.
     
  15. miserablist

    miserablistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Feb 11, 2010
     
    I can't remember the last time that a chimp make startling discoveries about how the universe began, cured cancer, built a network of computers that allowed instantaneous communication with people all over the world, set up a network of satellites in orbit that do pretty much the same thing, increased average life expectancy for their species by at least 50% etc etc etc
     
  16. pip

    pipMember Forum Member


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    Feb 27, 2010
     
    Actually, most mammal brains do have the ability to conceptualize their own existence. They're a lot more aware than we understand, and we're discovering that every day.

    It's true that they can't do it to the same extent that we can.

    They can however feel emotions to the same level we do. They feel pain, fear, anger, helplessness...
     
  17. miserablist

    miserablistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Feb 11, 2010
     
    I sorry but unless you can furnish me with some kind of proof I'm not going to believe that a llama can feel angst, or trepidation or sorrow.
     
  18. pip

    pipMember Forum Member


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    Feb 27, 2010
     
    miserablist, I can either quote my textbook which I can't really find right now, or send you here:

    - Ethics & the Environment, Volume 6, Number 2, Autumn 2001, Indiana University Press. Look for Beth Dixon's article.

    Or, if you're not up for the reading, there's also a bunch of documented facts and anecdotal evidence floating around. Like primates that don't let go of their dead babies.

    Or if you've ever had a pet, especially a rescue, have you ever seen them cringe? My cats react with fear when I whip out my vacuum cleaner. My dog loved me and included me as part of his pack.

    Have you ever seen a dog rescued from abuse? They react with fear to sudden movements or loud noises. Emotions evolved for a reason in both humans and animals.

    Furthermore, if you see emotions as what they are, a simple stimulus-response than even human emotions are suspect.

    But it's 6 am and I'm exhausted.
     
  19. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 31, 2010
     
    Yeah, humans are smart and good at tools, your point is? See, I've yet to see a human echo locate, or fly, etc, in fact I doubt many could survive too long if you took their tools away, which is fair enough, that's what they do. Ok, guess you do think being smart is all that matters. Let's hope there no smarter species out there, eh? We be well fucked.
     
  20. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 31, 2010
     
    Ok, so I won't believe you can feel such neither, til you furnish me with some proof, of course.
     
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