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Guns and anarchist society

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by ungovernable, May 16, 2010.

  1. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    in the documentaries i seen, first they make the animal inconscious and then they cut its throat so there is abosolutly no suffering
     
  2. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    People make up the state. The police are people. They suffer from the same flaws that your syndicate will suffer. Jealousy, fear, anger, and all the other human emotions will still be in play.

    "The system isn't made up of bricks, it's mostly made of people."
     
  3. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    What method are they using to make then unconcious?
    Don't mean to be annoying, just want to know :p
     
  4. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Actually they use elctro shock or captive bolt to stun the animal and make it easier for both animal and the person slaughtering. This only immobilizes the animal for a few moments. At this point the carotid artery is severed resulting in rapid loss of consciousness and death.

    I've known several people that have worked in slaughter houses and have taken a tour of one myself.
     
  5. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I had a two week internship at a slaughterhouse in '97 so i've seen my share, there they used guns. I grew up on a farm and saw slaughtering of different kinds there as well, from chopping heads off of hens, shooting sick cows, etc. I've not seen the electrical shock thing in real life but i've read about it and seen documentaries of slaughterhouses where it's been used, and it doesn't seem to me like it's all that nice. I've also talked to butchers that have used it but then went back to using a gun because it sometimes doesn't work as effectively as it's supposed to and the animals are in pain for a long time before they get unconcious. From what i know this method is primarily used on smaller animals up to the size of pigs and on very big pigs it rarely is enough. Also if you ask me, i don't think there should be anything made to make it easier for the humans to kill animals but that's a different issue.
     
  6. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Woah so the police are people and the state and the police represent the people !!! How nice... We live in a perfect world don't we ??
    Why would we want anarchism if the police and the state is so representative of the people ???

    Police obey to laws, nothing more nothing less. And don't tell me that laws are representative of the people.

    BTW by "people" i'm not talking about the bourgeoisie or the ruling class

    Instead of critizing, please explain us how we would protect ourselves in an anarchist society. Protect ourselves from murderers and from fascists who want to take the power ??? Oh yeah i forgot, a gun for everyone and no more gun control laws !! If someone have a problem, then it's the law of the jungle !!

    An anarchist syndicate mandated to protect the peoples would be retrogradable at any time, the roles would be temporary and there would be a rotation of the jobs so no one would stay in power long enough to make a "power game" appear and no one would abuse their power since peoples protecting others would be part of the people and they would be watched by others. They wouldn't be protected like the police are today and they wouldn't be invincible against complaints like how it is today. Right now policemen are backed up by the state and there's nothing you can do against them, even if they abuse their power and do wrong things they are still being protected.
    There are many anarchist theories around what i am trying to explain you, and it definatly doesn't sound like a police power. There's a very good pamphlet in french called "deviance in an anarchist society" distributed by the Anarchist Federation and it clealy explain how we would deal with protecting the people in an anarchist society.


    Smashing the animals on the head :p Then they make sure the animals are really unconcious and cut their throat... On some other documentaries i seen, some said they were using injections and others didn't want to tell us...

    I saw this here:
    http://www.ztele.com/webtele/la-viande-9708/

    But it's in french :p And i'm not sure if the website will let you view the video outside of canada
     
  7. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Now who's naive? History has proven time and time again, once you give power it is never given back. From the Senate making Caesar emperor to the patriot act, once that power is given away the only way to reclaim it is revolution.

    By people I mean humans. Humans are flawed by our very nature. While the majority will strive to better their world there will always be those that act in contrast to that. Even those put into power to protect others. We must always be ready to combat this, with force if necessary.
     
  8. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Then suggest something else. Until you prove me wrong, this is the best solution to maintain order.

    And actually you are wrong, history have proven time and time again that anarchist societies never gave a power that can be abused. Did the CNT and the POUM abuse their power in the spanish revolution ? Did the zapatists become a police ? Did the sailors of kronsdadt become authoritarians ?? Did the makhnovtchina start abusing their power ?? etc etc etc....

    I defy you to find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE in history, where an anarchist revolution turned into abuse and power unrepresentative of the people. Good luck.

    The difference is that in anarchism the hierarchy is horizontal, and in statist countries the power is vertical. An horizontal "power" is representative of the people and it's not a danger - it's a tool. A vertical power is dangerous and not representative of the people.
     
  9. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't understand any french but i did understand something about it only being watchable from Canada :(
    Would imagine the headsmashing isn't really for bulls who are built to take quite the smashings to their heads^^ Altough i do get some images of someone smashing a bull on the head with an iron frying pan... lol. Can't imagine it being very good to eat the meat if injections are used but i can however imagine it happening.
     
  10. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Actually yes, the weird thing is that it looks like a bulls meat factory in this documentary... I'm not sure how they do it but you are right, a bull is really strong and can take a lot of smashing to the head... Maybe they got a machine or something... Anyway, i am sure they don't use guns !
     
  11. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Why you use the word 'honest'? If you keep animal in cage then kill it, who exactly do you think you lying to? I never owned a gun, never felt I needed to. There many ways to kill, but pretty easy with a gun I imagine, which is why the situation in USA is so fucked up, cos I think sometimes in past, like if I angry and drunk or something, pretty sure if there a gun laying around, I could have shot someone. Dunno for sure, I mean knives laying around and I never stabbed anyone, so who knows. Doubt I feel like I need a gun in anarchist commune or whatever neither, though being realistic there always risk of heavily armed bad guys, guess I think more in terms of a community militia rather then individual weapon possession. Whatever, you guys with the honest hunting fetish, decent bow will do the job, I mean, if you really do think there's some kind of spiritual 'truth' in fucking with the local ecosystem.
     
  12. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    That sounds strange but i believe you, if that works there would be no need for guns for that either. I just hope it's also less stressful and scary for the animals then shooting them. Of cause to me it would be even better if there was no killing of animals at all but that's not what this topic is about so i'm not going there now.
     
  13. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    What the fuck it matter, they dead whatever. There is no 'humane' way to kill, that's just invention of people with guilt problem.
     
  14. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I never said there are humane ways to kill and i am all against killing but this topic is about guns and anarchist society and since not all anarchists are vegans or vegetarians i think this is areasonable thing to discuss.
     
  15. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I guess, though if they gonna kill on my patch they gonna have to get past me first. Maybe I should get a gun, init.
     
  16. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yeah i'm not gonna say "go ahead and kill all you want" either, though i think in some communes slaughtering for food will most likely occur. Maybe not where you or i live but we can't be everywhere.
     
  17. disfuck

    disfuckExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    guns are kinda cool and they make people feel strong but i dont see to many reasons on owning them or at least more than one im not really a fan of them
     
  18. bgrass

    bgrassExperienced Member Experienced member


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    So what will you do to the person who owns guns in your community?
     
  19. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Why do you keep talking like if all decisions were up to me ? In a community we all decide together, so it wouldn't be me who would decide what to do but the whole community.

    Inform yourself about anarchist social contract and how it work.
    When establishing a community, we will decide how this community will work. If we decide that guns are not allowed, then everyone who join the community will have to accept the social contract. So no guns at all should enter the community, end of the story. If someone is found with guns, then he is breaking the social contract. So either we get his guns, or he leave the community and move to another community where guns are tolerated.

    And guns is not the only thing that wouldnt be tolerated in an anarchist community, do you seriously think we would use violence everytime someone doesnt respect the social contracts ? Stop being paranoid.
     
  20. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Washington DC had a ban on firearms for 30 years and yet during that time also had some of the highest rates of murder and gun violence. How could this be possible if guns were banned? Here's the answer. Someone who will use a gun to kill doesn't give a fuck if possessing a gun is illegal. This is the major flaw in the argument to ban firearms. It assumes that everyone will behave and this is not, and most likely will never be, the case.

    By "you" I mean you as in the opposite side of the debate, not necessarily you Ungov. I cannot speak for anyone else but I assume that they are using "you" in the same context.
     
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