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Gay pride rallys ?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by ungovernable, May 23, 2010.

  1. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    note the lucid critical thinking:

    Keep digging their, zippy...... :lmao:
     
  2. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    @Queerpunk: you quote something I posted above and attributed it to dinscurge.
    I can see why it'd piss you off, I expressed myself so badly that it comes out the opposite to what I wanted to say. :ecouteurs:
    Clarification:
    What I meant was that ruling class interests define what constitutes 'Deviance' or 'Normality'. Thus queer folk are only 'deviant' insofar as they are at odds with hetro-sexist patriarchal hierarchical society (to varying degrees). I basically come from Foucault's (a la History of Sexuality) perspective on this matter. You know what I'm like homie ;) gender as a social construction and whatnot.

    And yes, homosexuality as an expression of bourgeois culture is a rather daft idea, although some (marginal) deadshit lefties still spout this shit. :lmao: What dicks.
     
  3. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Are you comparing public displays of homosexuality to 'doing crack/meth'? Oh dear... o_O
     
  4. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    All right, I'm going to try my hand at this.

    I find it frustrating when people talk about minorities "wanting special treatment." That language misrepresents what's really going on. There's an implication that minorities want some kind of preferential treatment that the majority does not receive. On the contrary, it's the majority that is consistently receiving preferential treatment.

    Different groups should be treated differently from one another because they are different. That's not a bad thing. Equality does not mean homogeneity. It doesn't mean assimilation. Queers are not straight people who fuck different. People of color aren't white people with more skin pigment. These groups are different. That's okay.

    Liberals try to convince us that the way to deal with oppression is to ignore it. They say that bigotry is illogical because we're all the same. While it's true that the fundamental similarities between human beings are vastly more numerous than our differences, it's a fucking ass-backwards approach to say that what we should be doing to eradicate prejudice and oppression is to have everyone assimilate into one big normative blob.

    Pride parades happen for a lot of reasons. One of the main ones is to celebrate the ways in which queers aren't like straight people. These are legitimate expressions of queer identity. I'm pretty distressed by how many people I see on this thread essentially telling queers to get back in the closet. I'm seeing it repeated here that queers are somehow hurting themselves by having these celebrations in the streets because they might make heteronormative people uncomfortable. Why do you automatically judge the queers? Isn't it more reasonable to find fault in those who have prejudice against non-normative identities? Shouldn't those people be forced to confrot their discomfort since it comes from a place of cultural bigotry?

    Anxiety, are you seriously trying to argue that allowing pride marches is a slippery slope to massive nazi rallies? :ecouteurs:
     
  5. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Maybe somebody needs to define the reason why there should be rallies at all in the first place.

    And frankly I don't understand what you are saying about we should be treating minorities differently. that sounds like patron ism, as well as racism or separatism. sounds like you are creating more dividing lines by doing so.
     
  6. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    well Anx there should be GLBT rallies precisely because they are celebrations of a lifestyle that has survived through thousands of years of witch-hunt, and so what? When you see Mexicans dressed as Aztecs dancing and parading it is a celebration that a culture has withstood repeated attempts by other cultures to assimilate it and stamp it out, and so on and so on. I was working in Hillcrest (San Diego's predominantly gay neighborhood) one Halloween night and three gay men dressed as naughty devils in skin tight red vinyl , high heels and red featherboa's came in and started dancing with me to the tune of 'disco inferno' blaring out of a ghetto blaster, it was funny, campy, and their outfits looked amazing. Now I'm not homosexual, but I was in no way offended, or threatened by these guys or their antics and I played along because it was a fun distraction from my labor and it sucked that I had to work that night. I just don't get Homophobia, or Queer-bashing, or Hetero-normative oppression. So what if they want to scream out at the world that has oppressed gays for about as long as we have been on the planet.

    Also, as long as there are any oppressed gays in the rest of the world why wouldn't they want to protest and rally?
     
  7. Carcass

    CarcassExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Well, people have different experiences, right? Marginalized communities have very specific shared histories that do separate them from other communities and cultures. The way they, as a community, come together to deal with that history of difference and marginalization should be up to them. Sometimes people make the assumption that pride parades are alienating because the behaviors of some queer people are too over the top, too flamboyant, too abnormal. But what is normal? What's the standard and why? We're conditioned to think of normative culture as a baseline and, in doing so, naturalize it. But there's nothing any more natural about normative gender roles than there is about transgressive gender roles.

    One of the reasons why pride parades are typically characterized by flamboyance is that the marchers are trying to make the point that gender is a performance. QueerPunk brought up the example of people tolerating over-the-top displays of gender performance when the performance is normative. There is just as much performance going on here as there is here. Assuming that both of those people are reasonably well-adjusted adults, we can assume that they perform those particular rituals because that is what feels most comfortable or natural to them. It's outrageous to say that our tranny friend should have to start dressing and acting like this guy just because Great Aunt Mabel ain't comfortable with queens.

    In the end, it's Mabel's responsibility to deconstruct and overcome her own internalized prejudice. It is not the job of the victims of that prejudice to educate her. If you're a member of a normative group striving to be an ally to an oppressed group, then start reaching out to the Great Aunt Mabels of the world. I hear you when you say that there are deep divisions based on race/class/gender lines which capitalists exploit to keep us from organizing effectively. But the solution to that problem is not to tell queers that we can't express ourselves. If you want to unite people and be an ally to our struggle, then start acting as an educator against prejudice in your own community. We really need that.

    Great post, punkmar. I really appreciate the way you explain things. That impromptu devil dance party sounds like it was a lot of fun! :lmao:
     
  8. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Cheers Carcass, you write a fair bit more clearly than I do on this topic.
     
  9. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    @Carcass
    Thought you may like this.
    A personal fav:
    fucking great :thumbsup:
     
  10. HCdancingsux

    HCdancingsuxActive Member Forum Member


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    Gay pride rallies are the best! They are not exactly protests either. No gay I've ever met has been one to 'fight for normality'. They are not 'focusing on the differences' they just take the chance to be different and go wild. Its fucking punk rock.
    Its more like a performance of what they love. Most likely the more laid back gays will be there enjoying the overly flamboyant gays, and they are apart of the rally(or parade) too. If gay pride rallies weren't excessive, they'd be just like every other boring parade. I'd say: There's this thing called fun. HAVE IT. :p Drag queens do.

    Also, I love this response:

     
  11. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    aww shucks :thumbsup:
     
  12. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok, finally found this thread. A couple of days age there was a Gay Pride in one of the biggest cities in my country Split. Of course, there was strong resistance against it and it ended before it should have. The week after this one there's a Gay Pride in my town, as an answer to the violence in Split. It doesn't bother me at all. But the thing that bothers me is that gays put flags on the squares, and they said that their flags should be everywhere in town, that they have right to express their sexuallity.I don't get it, it seems like they are looking for a fight. I support Gay Pride, but I think I can't support their flags, it's too much for me ( not that I have something against them, but I find it provocative). I've couple of gay friends and they don't agree with the flags either.

    What to you thing ? Are the flags on the main squeres too much ? Or, just give me the reason why would they want to do that.
     
  13. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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  14. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't 'get' what yr problem with some flags is
     
  15. The Freakboi

    The FreakboiExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I couple of people have kind of covered what I think, but I'll still offer my view. I think that Gay Pride parades are supposed to highlight that gay people are different, but that its okay for them to be. Otherwise its like saying "being gay is only okay if you dress and act exactly the same as straight people."
     
  16. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok..
    Some gays think it's unnecessary. So basicaly they don't support their own freedom ?
    I never said that I'm against the flags, I said that I don't support them ( meaning I'll stay neutral on this ).
    And no one still gave me the reason why do they put flags.

    @butcher : There is no real problem. I think the people will hate them even more because of this, and I myself don't get what's the point it putting flags on main squere when you know 80% of population is against that. It's interesting how many people don't support Gay Prides but have nothing against gays ( I still find them silly and homophobe )
     
  17. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Because '80% of [the] population is against' something isn't a very good reason for you to also do so...
     
  18. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I'm not against it, butcher ! :ecouteurs: I'm just trying figure out why do they do that.
     
  19. sputnik ludnik

    sputnik ludnikMember Forum Member


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    from what you hear because they need to stay secret for the most year so they try to become visible. but you know, "they" have varying opinions on issues too, like adoption, marriage, capitalism, ... but the flag is supposed to represent that they exist, even if you don't see them, there are always and everywhere 5% of the population strictly gay - only living it openly to a different degree.
     
  20. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    And I don't think it's a healthy idea to leave the streets and the public in general to the nationalist/fascist/homophobe scum - just think of the german nutzis in the early 30's, just a threatening violent minority using terror to scare off and silence all opposition.
    First it's the gays, then the punks - who's next one by one, I think it's just self-preservation to stay with the oppressed and show solidarity and resistance - their enemies are ours too, guess you know that better than me.
     
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