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Freedom Of Speech?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Anxiety69, May 15, 2010.

  1. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    NGNM85 although I disagree completely with what you are suggesting I have to point out that I think it is terrible the way you are treated for your opinion.

    You obviously don't see Nazis as a threat, I'm not sure why exactly, perhaps you don't live in an area where innocent people have been killed and beaten up by them? And to say that a Nazi revolution, "simply isn’t possible today, or in the foreseeable future", further illustrates this. Have you not heard of the BNP ?? A political party in Britain who are utter Nazis. Nick Griffin their leader was recently elected as a member of the European Parliament. So don't say that's it's not "possible". Unfortunately it IS.

    Also just because some people do not say they WILL do something violent towards other people does NOT mean they should be tolerated. Even if they themselves don't do anything violent, what they say often influences other people to go do it.
    Take David Irving for example, whenever he has given speeches, race related violence has increased in the area.

    You can't say that just because in an anarchist society free-speech would be tolerated...that in today's society it should too. Things are a helluva lot different, you can't apply the same rules to it. Unfortunately we live in a society with dangerous people wanting to hurt innocent people and we should change our "rules" according to the times we live in...those people should NOT be tolerated, because if they ARE innocent people will get hurt. It's as simple as that NGNM85.
     
  2. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    If a society is started where this "hate" speech and nazi beliefs is outlawed and banned, your going to have people who want to be nazis for shock value, even if their not really racist. They'll do it because its "against the norm" and all anti- and shit. And then they will probably call themselves the anarchists!

    What anxiety listed about the fire and bomb lines... its called a clear and present danger within the first amendment. Where you do not have the right to say those things because it physically puts others in danger.

    Now where i lie, freedom of speech is for everyone, so is the freedom of expression and i feel i have the right to want to kick nazi asses and shit, but since i want to do that, their gunna argue they have the same right to do it back, its a vicious circle my friends.

    Oh... and if your a pacifist but you say that nazis shouldnt have the freedom of speech and all, your a hypocrite and have no say in this matter because you wouldnt do anything to stop them in the first place.
     
  3. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    And once again you say nothing about the way i am being treated by NGNM85 for my opinion.

    Passively listen to hate speech... HAHAHAHA... you are a hippy.

    Oh so now hate speech is synonymous of democracy ???

    Hate speech is incompatible with anarchism, end of the story

    Nobody talked about imprisonning them, this is another of your inventions

    You are talking with law terms again. Disgusting.

    You are an anarcho-lawyer who base his jugement on the capitalist law concepts.

    Yes, you suggested "we should passively listen to hate speech without using violence". This is the exact definition of TOLERANCE.

    Your argument is ridiculous, WWI have nothing to do with the rise of hitler, and NOBODY COULD PREDICT IT. Learn your fucking history. At the beginning hitler and the SS were only like 100 guys. NOBODY could predict that they would take the power, especially after he was sent to jail. LEARN YOUR HISTORY, IGNORANT FOOL.

    Yes, you suggested that nazis aren't a threat because they can't make a coup in the near future. You use this argument to say we should be tolerant and passive with nazis. SO THE SAME THING APPLY TO RUSSIA. Another contradiction in your speech.

    The expert talked !!!

    You keep making declarative stances without any argument, you aren't going to convice anyone. WHY isn't it possible ??

    The neo-nazis in USA are more organized and more numerous that hitler and his troops at the beginning.

    Fucking idiot, and you think that racism and homophobia isn't a desire and an intent to cause harm, just like yelling "FIRE!" ???

    Your arguments are so stupid, and you keep thinking you are right.

    No, YOU are suggesting to be the police of words, we will have to make difference between intents and classic hate speech, just immagine the trials that would result from this policy.
    "hey he's a neo nazi he has nothing to do in an anarchist society"
    "no he just said all black peoples should die, not that hes going to kill them, we allow ppl to say that black peoples should die, but not that they must die"

    it's going to look the same thing than the actual capitalist system

    you dodged the question again, CHICKEN

    Your argument is fucking stupid, i'll say like you always say : IRREVELENT

    It is a major consensus between anarchists that the capitalist language of law/legal terms is disgusting from the mouth of an anarchist. Stop talking like a fucking lawyer and talking like a capitalist.

    You should become a politician dude, this is where you belong to.

    [quote="ungovernable wrote: yeah good decision, but the neo nazis are just going to join one of the numerous far-right paramilitary militias which is pretty much the same thing as an army[/quote]
    You are still lying, deforming everything and putting words in peoples mouth.

    Punkmar only quote FACTS and explain that it is true that there is more supremacist in the authorities than you might think

    As for me, i just explained that a militia have the same TECHNICAL functionality as an army. They are still an armed force that can attack other groups of individuals, so there is not much difference between a supremacist in the army and a supremacist in a militia.

    I'm sure you do this on purpose. My sentence was really clear, but you are misinterpreting everything to put words in my mouth.

    You definatly act like a politician.

    PEOPLES SHOULD STILL HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS, EQUAL EGALITY OF CHANCES.

    Peoples fought for years and years so women could get the same rights as a men in the army. It is the same thing for ideas. Everyone is supposed to be able to join the army, without any distinctions on ideas.

    We could say the same thing for a lot of things. It is not a right to get employed in a shop. It is not a right to be able to locate an appartement from a proprietary. Etc...

    YOU ARE TOTALLY DISGUSTING, i can't believe this comes from the word of someone who pretend to be an anarchist.

    You say that nazis should be allowed to have their own schools and brainwash the children that aren't even in age of being able to know if this is normal or not and what is the truth.

    Your anarchist society would be chaos, this isn,t anarchist when nazis can brainwash the children to build their army.

    What do you think is worst ? violating freedom of speech, or having to deal with a lot of racist murders, racist crimes, far-right militias, nazi partys, brainwashed children, nazi schools, etc... ?? use your fucking common sense if you got a brain

    Yes you are acting like the fascists. The fascist partys ignore arguments from peoples like me, they do exactly the same as you.

    YOU TALK IN CAPITALIST TERMS AGAIN.

    This website is a community, read the fucking "who are we" text. it says this community is self managed by the individuals who participate to it. I don't give a fuck if in a capitalist point of view it is considered as private, WE chosen to made it public.

    following your stupid logical we could say that the town square belongs to the government.

    You are a fake anarchist supporting private propriety. IN an anarchist society, ALL PRIVATE PROPRIETYS are abolished, INCLUDING YOUR HOME. You understand nothing of anarchism, this is not how anarchist society works, inform yourself about the spanish revolution, auroville, and all the other examples of anarchist communities.

    No, you are an idiot, it's the community who decides, not me.

    You didn't answer my question: if this belongs to me then can i ban you ?

    You keep dodging the questions over and over again. YES this is what you said, you pretend that before confronting them and stopping them from spreading hate and propaganda, we must wait until there is a possible ethnic cleansing in the near future.

    He's the most qualified person to say how his movement could have been stopped, dumbass

    Yes you suggest passively listening to hate speech and not using violence

    You are alone in your world and you think that all anarchist revolutions of the history were fake since they think the same thing as me.
     
  4. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Truth;

    punkmar”]…. they are in your Police Dept's, they are in your Military, they are in your back yard....you can choose to ignore it and call me paranoid or a fascist but supremacists are akin to cockroaches, when you see one or discover one, that means there are hundreds hidden nearby.[/quote]


    How is this saying they represent all the Armed Forces? Your version of truth is very different from mine, or in laymans terms: you lied
     
  5. nodz

    nodzExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 4, 2010
     
    I said this on the previous thread

    By this very definition Nazi propaganda is not freedom of speech it is hate crime. People's rights or freedoms are impinged upon by singling them out in relation to their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc. So Nazi propaganda or any propaganda for that matter should not be allowed to exist in any form.
     
  6. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    No I won't either, because NGNM85 only reacted to what you were saying to him. There is a huge difference as I said in another forum between saying somebody sounds like a fascist from what they say and by calling someone stupid IMMEDIATELY for their opinion.

    As an aside, I don't expect you to stop insulting people Ungovernable, you said it before...politeness is for the beourgeoisie. Now that has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard coming from an anarchist.
     
  7. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Shut the fuck up political correctness fascist who can't be impartial, you were not even on this forum when he started calling me a fake anarchist and a fascist and an authoritarian. you just registered, you are new to this forum and you don't understand anything so just SHUT THE FUCK UP.

    I didn't insult the first, end of the story

    hahaha you are so contradictory, a couple of days ago you said i called you a feminist fascist because i said you SOUND like a feminist fascist and then you pretend you can make the difference, what a fucking joke

    And yes, political corectness is for bougeoisie

    how can you believe in freedom of speech for everyone like NGNM85 and believe that peoples shouldnt be allowed to insult?
     
  8. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFemExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    You are utterly laughable! Yes I am politically correct....aren't you?! And am I automatically a fascist because I challenged you on a ridiculous statement! You clearly don't like being confronted or WRONG! How can you defend saying politeness is for the beourgeoisie?! Truth is you CAN'T...so you resort to insults instead. And as an aside....I'm sooooooo offended.

    Yes you did, take a look at Back2Front's post on the anarchist philospher thread...i noticed you decided to ignore it.


    Everyone is contradictory to you because you just don't understand.
    I love the way you lied about what I said to try and make your point...this is EXACTLY what I did say : "I'm acting like a feminist-fascist???!!!" I never once said you called me a feminist-fascist. So stop lying please..

    And as an aside what does a feminist fascist sound like? Apparently to you it sounds like a person who calls you on sexist insults. If that's what a feminist fascist is....Yup I'm guilty! And proud of it!
     
  9. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Fuck politcally correctness, if you support that YOU are the one we should laught at

    Yes i ignore his stalinist trial

    and for the tenth time, the insults started way before this debate, so shut the fuck up your are new here and you dont understand anything

    YOU are the one who is lying, YES you said i insulted you and called you a fascist, read again what you said

    It sounds exactly like you, a dumb feminist you think i am sexist because i didnt know a word could be interpreted as sexism, and who keeps calling me a sexist even after i explained her 200 times

    Are you denying that feminist fascists exists ? Please read the SCUM Manifesto, you are ignorant.
     
  10. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Here's what you said... LIAR !!!!!!!

    I said you SOUND like a feminist fascist, but you say i CALLED you a feminist fascist:
    HYPOCRITE !!!!

    So stop pretending there is a difference between saying someone SOUND LIKE or ACT LIKE a fascist and someone who IS a fascist, when you can't even make this difference yourself.

    And don't wonder why i say you are contradictory.

    How funny.
     
  11. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    feminist-fascist reminds me of the term feminazi... but it was coined by rush limbaugh so no one should use it ever :ecouteurs:
     
  12. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    feminist-fascist reminds me of the term feminazi... but it was coined by rush limbaugh so no one should use it ever :ecouteurs:
     
  13. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Why?

    I appreciate that.

    Well, first of all we're talking about neo-nazis, as any remaining real nazis are probably dying and bedridden. However, I know what you mean. A threat? Well, yes perhaps, I concede they might be a threat to me personally or to any of us here. That's unfortunate. However, neo-nazis have absolutely no political power in the US. Even among ignorant, racist people neo-nazis are fairly despised. They occasionally try to run for some kind of office but almost uniformly come in dead last or damn near. As I said, in the present and forseeable future in America, the likelihood of a neo-nazi acquiring a position of power in congress, the white house, the pentagon, is a less likely threat than invasion by hostile extraterrestrials. Now, I think the anxiety or agitation one experiences should correlate with the likelihood of any potential threat. It does disturb me that these organizations exist, but I'm more concerned about nuclear proliferation, global warming, the collapsing economy, and war in the middle east, just to start.

    I can't speak for England, but it was my understanding the BNP aren't that large and only have a small handful of representatives in the British government, have very minimal support in terms of the population, and are despised by the mainstream politicians. Again, I only pay marginal attention to British politics, but that's the gist of everything I've read on the subject.

    I'm not suggesting to do nothing, merely not to lose perspective in formulating a response.


    Again, I never said it should be passively ignored. I'm just against prosecuting people who haven't actually done anything criminal. Anyone in that crowd who attacks someone, that person needs to be held accountable. However, I really don't want to start legislating thought. The Taliban, the Nazis, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., were all vehemently opposed to freedom of speech under any circumstances, I really don't want to join that tradition.

    See, I almost completely disagree with you. See, what human rights means, what principles mean, is that they don't just apply when it's convenient.

    Also, as I was saying; free speech is the most basic essential componant of a free and democratic society, which I happen to prefer to the alternative.
     
  14. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    You were implying that this is a substantial percentage, that there are many more where this individual came from. I mean the way you said it; "In our neighborhoods..etc." the implication is clear. Furthermore, when I simply suggested that this was just probably a miniscule fraction of the military you put up such a fight. If you didn't disagree with that statement (Which I thought was totally inoccuous.) then there's no sense in all the resistence.
     
  15. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    You dont get to take it from me disagreeing that your quote of less than one percent is correct, to putting words in my mouth that I said that they represent the Armed Forces. That is from one extreme to the other, and you simply dont get to do that, its called lying to prove your point. Of course there are many more supremacists in the military and Govt that remain hidden. That doesn't mean all of them are supremacist, is that clear enough for you not to lie about it.....?

    ....and in reply to your earlier suggestion that any supremacist's running for office have come in dead last, David Duke lost the governorship of Louisiana by less than 2% of the total vote back in the early 90's but I guess you wouldn't remember that because you were only 6 years old at the time that I was putting my life on the line for him to lose.......
     
  16. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    It's so funny how you are soo offended because someone disagree with you and you can't accept it.

    She disagree. She have the right to.

    Don't forget : i'm using this "ultimate freedom of speech without any limits" that you are giving to everyone.

    And to all black peoples, to all non-christian, to all non-aryan peoples, to all leftish, to all liberals, to all peoples against dictatorship, to all communists, to all anarchists, and the list is much larger.

    In sum, the neo-nazis are a threat not only to all of us here, but also to 75% of the americans (or more) and to like 90% of the world population.

    Neo-nazis doesn't need political representation to make murder on the streets, to brainwash children, to spread hate propaganda, etc...

    Neo-nazis in russia doesn't have any political representation and they are still doing A LOT OF HARM. That's enough to react and to agree that they shouldnt be allowed to have free speech.

    It's also funny how you always ignore the existence of numerous extremist militias who are armed with very dangerous weapons and ready (and willing) to use them.

    Why the fuck would you care about the collapsing economy ? Oh yeah i forgot, you are a capitalist.

    An economical crash is the best thing that can happen, maybe peoples will finally question themselves about why this is happenning and how banks is the greatest 21st century rip-off since they borrow money that doesn't exist, etc... Then maybe they will realize how capitalism is the source of all problems.

    Capitalism can crash and destroy itself, anarchists should be the least persons on earth to care.

    WOW, another proof that you are an ignorant.

    You said we should passively listen to free speech and refuse to use violence.

    Passive hippy-like protest is passive ignorance.

    Stop referring to law terms like criminality, it doesn't prove shit since this is a illegitimate system.

    By the way in some countries like germany and france, hate speech IS criminal and the use of nazi slogans or symbols IS criminal.

    Fascism, racism, and nazism is all against the anarchist moral and the anarchist ethics. This is what you should care about instead of caring about laws and the concept of criminality.

    Another godwin point for you.

    This is two very different things. The anarchist says "out tolerance ends where hate begins" and the nazi says "we refuse to let anyone critize us".

    Anarchists aren't against different opinions and peoples who critize them, they are against HATE.

    Which is more important ? A cliché basis of anarchism, free speech for everyone even the hateful peoples, or an egalitarian society where there is no discrimination and no hate, and where peoples aren't scared of getting killed by a neo-nazi militia, stabbed to death by a racist that we tolerated because he still hadn't done anything criminal, or insulted by an homophobic protest in their own community ?

    Anarchism are supposed to be against order too. That's another cliché. But at least we all learnt that it is most important to prioritize the order of the society and prevent chaos, rather than sticking on old cliché values like "anarchists are against order of all sort"

    To follow your stupid theory, i could also say that anarchists believe in freedom for everyone, and that freedom is the most important basis of a free society. But preventing the rapes, the murders, the serial killers, and preventing the capitalists from having the freedom to build their capitalist city, their capitalist shops, and have the freedom to have their propriety.... is far more important than sticking on the old cliché values of "freedom for everyone in any circumstances".

    There are limits for everything. Nothing is black and white. It applies for freedom, for the concept of order, AND ALSO FOR THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.


    Answer this post and stop dodging like a chicken.
     
  17. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    100% true. I understood what you meant as soon as i have read it, and english isn't even my first language. What NGNM85 is doing is just deforming what you said, doing disinformation, putting words in your mouth, and lying. What you said was very clear and only someone with bad intentions could misinterpret it. He did it on purpose, just like when he lied and said that i have wrote that the neo nazis are representative of the US Army. In fact, i just said that the neo nazis who would be kicked out of the army would just join a militia, and this militia has the same technical function of an army. So they are still part of an armed group, they still have weapons in their hands, they are still military trained, and they are still ready and willing to use their weapons and their military training against ethnic minorities. This is why i said that "it is the same thing as the army". But even after explaining that, NGNM85 ignored me, still acting like a fascist and not taking other's explainations into consideration.
     
  18. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    it's also funny to see NGNM85 (once again) totally ignored my answer to his posts (post #2 on this page)

    ...and then he keeps pretending he answer everything i post... what a liar !
     
  19. Protspecd

    ProtspecdExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Mar 3, 2010
     
    Wait a minute, feminazi..

    If we take the e away and add a U we get fuminzai..

    Replace the min with a g.. we get

    fugazi


    Holy shit.. I think Ian Mackaye... Is a feminist-fascist...
     
  20. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    If I responded to everything it would be a 24-hour job. However, I will oblige.

    First of all, in the original example that Ungovernable brought up, that doesn't even apply, Faurisson only wrote that the holocaust never happened, which I think he sincerely believes, theres' no evidence he's a neo-nazi.
    However, even in the case of someone distributing national socialist literature, which is anything but ambigous, I have several major objections.

    First, as reasons for criminalizing or prohibiting expression, the potentiality that someone may believe it is just a bad reason. It also sort of presupposes the alternative viewpoint is so weak it can't possibly tolerate the slightest opposition.

    Said literature may express an animosity or prejudice, but if it is not an explicit exhortation to violence then you're effectively punishing people for things they might do, or, more starkly, things they haven't done. I have big problems with that.

    Then there are some of my more general objections; That freedom of speech is integral to a free and democratic society, that once one starts violating basic human rights it tends to become habitual, and that criminalizing or prohibiting free expression is both authoritarian, and inconsistent with Anarchism.
     
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