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favorite anarchistic philosopher

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by stinagen, Apr 18, 2010.

  1. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 19, 2009
     
    So if you support the freedom of speech your a fascist now because someone out there in the world is racist? Now i agree, beating out racism is importantl and we all wish it to go away. But were human, it will ALWAYS be here, you are way to naive to think it'll disappear, maybe violent acts of it yes, but the thought of it? You cant stop a thought, its like the war on terrorism, your not going to stop an IDEA. I dont think. And for you to say that anything that i just wrote makes me racist in any way, then you are the piece of shit and just gives me more reasons as to why people are the problem and that human extinction is the only way to anything better than what we have now or in the near distant future. Now, there are no antifa chapters within 50 miles of me, but ive traveled long and far for anti-racist protests and ill be damned if ill have some asshole tell me otherwise because they are IGNORANT to my life.
     
  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    You still always refuse to answer this point :

    We could say the same thing with freedom. Jeopordizing nazi's freedom if jeapordizing our's. And it's authoritarian to take away their freedom.

    So in other word, you fight for the freedom of nazis and racist murders, child rapers, etc... Because you can't make exclusion in freedom, right ?

    So if a child raper and killer goes to jail, you will fight for his liberation because you are against prison and you believe in freedom ?

    There is ALWAYS some exceptions.

    You vote, hahahahahahahaha....

    So you are telling us that you believe in nazi freedom of speech but if they protest you will go protest against them with the peoples wearing anti-nazi t-shirts and signs and yelling "nazis out of our streets" ???

    You see a bunch of KKK members protesting and yelling racist slogans and you are like... woahhh wonderful freedom of speech they have the right to express themselves !!!

    I seriously wonder why you would go to those protest.... you should go on the nazi side and tell the anti-fascists they shouldn't protest because nazis have the right to have their own freedom of speech. And the if the cops repress the nazi manifestations, start insulting the cops because they are breaking the nazis freedom of speech !!

    Why the fuck would you call the cops ? You just said on the last 3 pages that you are ready to defend nazis freedom of speech and that you are against the police breaking their freedom.... but you would call the police to break their freedom...

    Then the spanish revolutionnaries were fake anarchist because they burned franquist propaganda, the commune of paris were fake anarchist because they burned government propaganda, etc...... etc.... etc....

    Woah dude, looks like you are the ONLY real anarchist on this planet, and everyone else is fake anarchists !!!

    Woah now it's getting worse and worse.... You are really a weird person.

    Why does it sound dumb ? You are the one who sound dumb right now..

    Because i don't agree with your ideas doesn't means i don't understand them. This is a fascist mentality to think that someone doesn't understand if he doesn't agree with you.


    Ok now i understand everything. Well i'll just stop argueing now, after a couple of years of experience in activism and studying anarchist history/theory then maybe you will understand.

    NGM85 just curious, how old are you ?

    Woah, you live in the USA, the country with the most nazi and racist political party, the country with neo-nazi militias and the country with the most racist crime and you think they are not organized hahaha.... you have a lot to learn, open your eyes man....

    and even if they were not organized (they are) it's not a reason to wait until they are.

    You are being defeatist now. And it's not a reason to not fight against those ideas.

    We could also say the same thing with capitalism and all other issues we are fighting against. If we say nothing is ever going to disapear, we will sit down on our lazy ass and never achieve anything because we think it's impossible.
     
  3. back2front

    back2frontExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Oh dear this thread has turned into another rather farcical comedy.

    Ungovernable your rather reactionary replies and confrontational nature don't offer an arguement, just someone spitting bile and telling everyone else they're wrong. It's called an ideological hierarchy and it has nothing to do with anarchism. I always thought anarchism was about helping people not coercing them into a viewpoint which is a form of fascism. I'm all for critique and that's why if you read my post you'll see I don't think the arguement is clear cut, though I tend to accept the notion that freedom of speech is a given.

    If you call for banning something and drive it underground, it becomes far more dangerous , less open to scrutiny and less easy to penetrate. By having freedom of speech, these far right ideas become EXPOSED in public and in my experience these creeps are very good at shooting themselves in the foot.

    I mentioned the quote at the bottom of your post because it's by history's number 1 fascist and seeing you desire to ban everything these nazis say I though it was a little ironic. I'm not trying to prove anything my friend, I'm just someone asking questions.
     
  4. Probe

    ProbeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    yea its another reason why I don't say long stuff in here...na i'm just kidding :D
     
  5. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Reactionary ? You probably don't even know the meaning of that word. How am i being reactionary ? YOU are the one who is being reactionary by preaching to be careless about fascism. This is a step backward.

    I'm not offering an argument ? Are you kidding me ?? I quoted dozens of historical examples, backed up my thoughts with famous anarchists, etc... Everything you FAILED to do.

    You and your friend NGNM85 are the ones who failed to bring up argument. You failed to explain how your shitty theories can be applied in real life.

    ideological hierarchy ? hahahha a new invention of your's....

    anti-fascism has nothing to do with anarchism ? oh really ?
    so all the historical examples i quoted has nothing to do with anarchism ?

    Woohoo, another idiot who see fascism everywhere!

    You awarded another Godwin Point !!!

    You see form of fascism everywhere. You sound like a stalinist who accuse everyone of being a fascist for stupid reasons.

    The most dangerous fascists of the history were not underground.

    Hitler and the nazis were "exposed in public"
    The neo nazis in russia are "exposed in public"
    The neo nazis militias are "exposed in public"
    etc...

    You tell me i don't bring up arguments, well look what i am doing. And once again, you failed to back up your arguments with historical proofs.

    You are an idiot. And no, you are not asking questions, you are making shitty accusations and insulting me.

    Basically, you are saying i am a nazi for being radically anti-fascist. Don't you realize how fucking stupid you sound ??

    I hate peoples like you, YOU are the reactionnary, you are a fucking nuisance to the anti-fascist movement by calling a fascist everyone who is radically anti-fascist. You don't make any sense, you are just useless and a nuisance.

    back2front my ass, what front are you fighting on ?


    Congratulations once again for totally ignoring my arguments and refusing to answer the points i brought up. Did you know what ignoring someone's argument and prefering to make a trial with stupid accusations is also a form of fascism ? (see, i'm playing your game now)
     
  6. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    Maybe we could have a quiz that everyone had to take before regestring on this site to minimize the anarcho wannabees here..?
    In a confrontation with nazis i wouldn't want to be side by side with the nazi huggers here, cos i'd probably be standing there all alone while they run home to their mommies crying "the nazis hit me even tho i defended them!". :'(
     
  7. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ungovernable, i love you. Yr fighting the good fight, I wish i had the patience to fight with fuckwits in the manner you do so. if you have the energy to continue doing so, go for it; otherwise i'd suggest organising outta the interwebz forum debate ghetto may be more enjoyable :ecouteurs:

    Anywayz, for my two cents worth.
    I certainly understand, up to a point, of what ppl are trying to get at; but its hardly the point. OF COURSE we can't stop ppl being fucking racist dicks or nazis or whatever. How the fuck can i change someone's opinions? What we can do is smash their ability to organise; and yes, this means preventing public 'free speech'.

    Rampant racism and fascism are not political ideologies to be debated in the safety of the lecture theatre, but rather a politics committed to physical coercion and violence. Nazism is a conspiracy to murder, not a debate on politics to be had within the confines of an open and tolerant society. They openly organise against such notions, insofar as furthering an agenda of racial hatred and violence; if anything, the so-called 'denial' of these fucks' 'rights' to free speech should be seen as an act conducive to the formation of a society within which free speech can ACTUALLY occur in a meaningful manner. I consider the smashing of racist and fascist organisations, by any means necessary, to be inherently an act of anti-violence.

    Further, name one organisation of the racialist political persuasion that has not employed violence as a means of improving its position. It certainly was/is not the case in Germany; in the establishment of the BNP; National Action is Australia; Golden Dawn; etc, etc. Protecting these pricks' 'rights to free speech' amounts to nothing more than, what i would deem, criminal negligence on one's own behalf.
     
  8. back2front

    back2frontExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 26, 2009
     
    Ungovernable and butcher et al, before you jump in please take the time to read back over what I have written throughout this thread.

    In principle I am for freedom of speech but I have reservations. It was me who raised the question that giving freedom of speech to the far right could be counter-productive. It was me that suggested giving them any room could create a platform for them from which to organise and therefore I question the idea of giving them ANY room in the first instance, because they would remove our freedoms if they could and therefore in the long run giving them freedom of speech was de facto a stance AGAINST freedom of speech. In essence I'm agreeing with a lot of what you said AND without resorting to calling you names or insulting you.

    I don't think it's that clear cut however which is why I'm ASKING QUESTIONS rather than making statements. For example I also ask the question is having fascists out in the open better than having them covert and underground? I think that's a very valid question to ask.

    You seem to have taken my second question without considering what I said in any of my earlier points which perhaps you might like to go back and read. This and the fact that I am somehow an idiot, am useless, a nuisance fuckwit or whatever strikes me as being rather reactionary. Calling people names and telling them they are wrong isn't an argument, it's just somebody mouthing off.

    I think you are quite clear that you think we shouldn't give racists a single inch and I tend to agree, it's just that I always question everything. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking questions. I don't think it makes somone an idiot. Your arguements might be better if you realised there are actual people on the other side of these computers and maybe having a little respect for them might go further than you think.

    As someone involved in Antifa and who has been active in anarchist politics for nearly 30 years, someone who has confronted fascists on the street putting myself in danger, someone who has actually stood AGAINST fascists having freedom of speech etc I find it a little amusing when someone who has no idea who I am calls me names and tells me I know nothing about politics because I ask a few questions or challenge their position.

    I wasn't ignoring anyone's arguements but I certainly tend to get put off when they adopt a schoolyard mentality and any actual debate turns into pointless name-calling and some form of 'game' in their own heads. Grow up.
     
  9. Xero

    XeroMember New Member


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    May 3, 2010
     
    Anyone else notice that its turning into everyone v. Ungovernable on this thread?
     
  10. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    No, butcher, Anom and myself are firmly in his corner and its not about being devisive amongst all of us but its about two different schools of thought. It gets heated and I wish the name calling and childish remarks would stop on both sides, its counter-productive. But I certainly am not going to change my point of view because NGNM85 thinks I'm a 'nimrod' for being antifa or others say my views are 'fascist' or 'authoritarian' they can think what they want, like back2front I have spent a lifetime fighting them out of love for family, friends, and humanity in general. I don't expect anyone who hasn't led a simmilar lifestyle to comprehend or understand it, specially because I'm not as eloquent as others on here, but I will continue and maybe I'll die for it and maybe I won't.....who knows?
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Thanks a lot, now this is a breathe of fresh air :)

    Yes it takes a lot of patience for this kind of debates, but when some peoples sticks to their contradictory anarchism dogmas and refuse to hear anything i tend to loose patience... Already happenned on thos forum before, especially with the religious debates...

    You are very contradictory. You just said that giving freedom of speech to the far right is counter productive and in your last message you pretend that the best way is to give them freedom or unless they will organize in underground and it's more dangerous. And now you say to not give them any room... You sound very confused...

    Don't be surprised that i call you a nuisance for anti-fascism and other insults. I remind you that you
    1) said i am reactionnary
    2) said it was ironic that i quote hitler because i am acting like a fascist
    3) said i am doing ideological hierarchy and that i don't have anything to do with anarchism
    4) called me a fake anarchist
    5) etc...

    And all this because of what ? Because i am being radically anti-fascist, radically anti-nazi. So yes, you are a nuisance for anti-fascism by accusating the anti-fascists of being fascists because of the way they fight against fascism.

    You are very contradictory... You say we should give freedom of speech to the fascists and that fighting against them will result in them being more underground and therefore it will be harder to fight against them. You pretend that everyone doesn't take fascists seriously and that they shoot themselves in the foot when they are not underground....
    So why are you fighting in Antifa and why do you confront the fascist ? You should be fighting for their freedom of speech

    You are the one who should grow up, YOU started the pointless name-calling and stupid accusations. YOU started the schoolyard mentality, i played your game to show you how stupid it is. Re-read your previous post, it's full of insults and random accusations

    Hmmm, i think it's 50/50 in this topic and it looks like i have a couple of supporters. Also i'd add that the situation in france and in quebec is very different, 90% of the anarchists agree with the "radically anti-fascist mentality" and according to your description, you guys would think that all of us are pure stalinists, authoritarians acting like fascists, and blah blah blah.

    Let's say that i am one of the person who critize the most the france's anti-fascist movement like RASH Paris and other ****** who really act like fascists in their anti-fascist struggle. So just immagine how radical they are if you think i am.... I won't enter in details, but they clearly think anyone who does not think the same is on the opposite side. "Barricades only have 2 sides, either you are part of the solution or you are part of the problem" like they say....
     
  12. Lunadimae

    LunadimaeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I'm with Ungoverable on this one, if we do give them freedom of speech, they are racists they will only use it to offend other people not help the society. It's like giving a murderer a gun.

    But I really hate how you (Ungovernable) start insulting people.
     
  13. back2front

    back2frontExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 26, 2009
     
    The point of debate is to ask questions. In my first post on this thread I asked:

    "There is one element to the freedom of speech argument brought up latterly and that is that far rightists seek to deny freedom of speech (and most freedoms in general) ergo to defend their right to freedom of speech is technically NOT a defence of freedom of speech per se?"

    In my second post I asked moreorless the same question:

    "But as I mentioned earlier do you defend the rights of persons who, given free reign, would squash your freedoms at the bat of an eyelid? Do we differentiate between someone who holds apparently racist viewpoints and those directly involved in organised racism? And where do you draw the line?

    Organised fascism in every instance in history has curbed the freedom of others therefore to grant it free speech, which enables it to reach more people and room to organise, are you not in the long term going against the notion of free speech as a result? This is a question and not a statement."

    Reading through your various replies which by this point had descended into name calling I noticed at the bottom of your posts a quote by Adolf Hitler and I asked you about this because if you are 'radically anti-fascist' and believe that fascists shouldn't have a word it's surprising that you have a quote from one of them. That's a fair enough question because it is IRONIC and if you want to read that as an insult then it's fair to suggest you are being reactionary. Nothing to do with 'games' - I've far more important things to do believe me.

    In my third post I again asked similar questions:

    "When fascists and authoritarians come into power one might consider how this came about; and one might consider that it was because they were granted freedom of speech and therefore freedom to organise in the first instance. The fact that somebody might listen is the very reason why ideas are so dangerous.

    If one is for free speech one is against those who stand against it by default. I don't think the argument is clear cut however and that is my point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, sure, but are they entitled, if a group of people listen and accept those ideas, to organise on a platform those same ideas? Should fascists have the freedom to organise on a platform to promote their agenda in alignment with their right to speak in the first instance?"

    I think I'm being fairly consistent on this point which you'll notice is moreorless in agreement with yours only I don't see the need to call names. At this point I asked you why you were being so antagonistic because shouting insults at people isn't a debate. It's almost as if you demand that people accept your take which on the face of it IS coercive. In anarchist philosophy (Bookchin et al) we talk about the 'hierarchy of ideas'. In society at the moment we have top-down management where one or more people tell everyone what to do. Your approach of calling people names rather than answering their questions IS a form of coercion which does indeed have nothing to do with anarchism. Anarchists help people. Anarchism is about community not who has the loudest voice. So I think my points are fair, and they are put fairly.

    While still trying to maintain some semblance of debate I ask the question about whether it is better if Nazis are out in the open and publically exposed or hidden underground. That's a fair question to ask. But you seem to take these questions as personal insults and of you go on another tirade of name calling.

    I don't see any point in continuing this thread with you unless you are prepared to have a bit of respect- note 'points of unity' on these boards. I think my position is quite clear but as I keep saying, I question everything. It's not contradictory to ask questions - it's how you learn to galvanise your own opinions. Question ALL authority ALWAYS!

    Say for example that you are in power and you stop all free speech by Nazis - how do you decide who is a Nazi - am I a Nazi because I ask questions?
     
  14. nodz

    nodzExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Currently reading At the Cafe and The Anarchist Revolution. Writings and conversations of Malatesta.

    Something completely unrelated, was doing a search on the net the other day and a site on the Anrachistas of Argentina or Federación Libertaria Argentina (FLA) popped up. Here's the website http://www.libertario.org.ar/home.html link. It's all in Spanish. I was talking to my father-in-law and he being Argentinian is still abreast of much of the politics their and the FLA still has a considerable following.
     
  15. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Fantastic site, thank you nodz.....the links are incredible!
     
  16. nodz

    nodzExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yeah I thought it was a good site. Of course I have to get the SO to translate it ;)
     
  17. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    There’s no comparison. I would NEVER, EVER type anything so childlike and petty as “HA HA YOU’RE SO STUPID”. I don’t ever talk like that. I’ve been ridiculously civil to this individual, tried to patiently explain, reword things, and answered the same questions multiple times. I generally try to avoid attacking people personally or stooping to petty insults. I’ve lost count of all the personal attacks I’ve just let slide. When I finally make the determination that he is an idiot, I’m not trying to be inflammatory or provocative, it’s an inescapable conclusion based on voluminous evidence. There is no comparison, whatsoever.


    That isn’t what I said.

    "Money where their mouth is"? What the fuck does that mean? If you mean legitimate resistance to oppression, I'm all for it, in principle. The issue is the very specific instance of a few very specific self-proclaimed Anarchists acted in a very specific way. …Which is irrelevant, as I’ve explained.

    Shit, I don’t think at least half the people on here are ideologically Anarchists. Certainly anyone who favors censorship and book burning CANNOT be an Anarchist.

    That's not remotely what I said. I said that the US is, comparatively, a very free society, and I find that preferable to living in an actual police state. In many countries we could be executed for having this conversation. That doesn’t sound appealing to ME, personally.

    Yes, I think we should try to make our society better, more equitable, more democratic, better living conditions for everybody. I mean, otherwise you don’t care. I happen to care.

    I initially tried to be diplomatic about it, However, after he called me stupid for the tenth or twelfth time it didn’t seem out of bounds. That’s really pretty tame by comparison.


    Well, to my eyes it was two questions. Am I or have I ever been involved in any political action besides web forums, second, have I ever been involved in what you call “direct action.” I thought I covered all the bases, yes on both counts.

    No, again, words do have fucking meanings, incidentally. I said if a gang of neo-nazis staged a rally outside my home, I would call the police. Most definitely. That’s MY home. I get to make the rules on my property, and I don’t want those people around me or my family.

    However, in a public setting, like Boston common, there’s different rules. I’m not saying I would just passively ignore or acquiesce to neo-nazi agitators. I’d very likely confront them, I’ve had heated exchanges with that sort in the past. Actually, from the sounds of it I’m the only one interested in confronting it. Censorship is not confronting it, it’s hiding it. You don’t win the war of ideas by burning books, disappearing people in the middle of the night, criminalizing speech, etc. That’s just shoving it under the rug. You beat it by dealing with it, tackling it in the open, full-on.

    It doesn’t sound like it.
     
  18. NGNM85

    NGNM85Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    This goes way beyond poetic license, exaggeration, or mischaracterization into blatant lies and slander. At least direct your asinine comments to me, for christs' sake. If you're going to make accusations and insults like that have the fucking balls to say it to me. "Nazi hugger"?! What kind of crack are you smoking? I would think you would at least have more self respect than to say something so ridiculous, spiteful, and completely false.
     
  19. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Blah blah blah.... that's as stupid as calling me a fascist for being anti-fascist

    if i call names it's because i lose patience, especially when idiots call me a fascist for being radically anti-fascist, when peoples say i am authoritarian, etc...

    Your argument of "hierarchy of ideas" is big bullshit, i am just giving my point of view. That's the point of a debate. If you think peoples with different ideas shouldnt be able to express themselves in debates then YOU are the fascist and YOU are doing the hierarchy of ideas

    PLEASE ALSO NOTE THAT ANTI-FASCISM IS ONE OF THE BASIS POINT OF UNITY OF THIS FORUM. Start to understand the text before teaching me lessons.

    oh my got, i'm starting to desperate.... i said multiple times i don't want to take the power, i want THE PEOPLE to take the power....

    Do you really think it's hard to recognize a nazi ? I really have to explain you what it's about and how to "decide" who is a nazi ??

    No you're not a nazi because you have weird opinions on anti-fascism, that's fucking stupid.

    If i were you i'd be more scared by some idiots on these board who think that anti-fascists are fascist instead of being scared by the one who are radically against fascists, (real fascists).



    Fucking good writtings, i recommend it to everyone


    Oh, so your description of respect is to call me an authoritarian and a fascist ?

    And no, you didn't answer 80% of my questions even if i repeat it multiple times. You keep pretending it is "irrevelent" or some bullshit like that.


    ...and this kind of quote is not childish ?

    No dude, you mean that you think all of the anarchists in the history are not ideologically anarchists, and you think that all examples i have given (makhnovtchina, spanish revolution, commune of paris, first international, zapatistas, etc) are fake anarchists aka "not ideologically anarchists"

    You live in your fictive world, you think you are the only real anarchists and all others are fake anarchists. WAKE UP DUDE !

    Peoples who support freedom for our ennemies CANNOT BE ANARCHISTS. And in fact, chomsky isn't an anarchist, he said it himself. Neither are you.

    So you are a reformist....

    Actually i would have called you a fake anarchist like you are doing, but i thought THAT would be childish. I can't find anything better to answer than insults when i read stupid stuff saying we should tolerate nazi freedom of speech

    You should stick to the web forums if you think voting for a political party is a direct action.

    You understand nothing of anarchism, and even less about direct action...

    ahahahahahahahahahahahaha..... what a funny quote

    so you are an "anarchist" who believe in private proprety ? you are also an anarchist who call police to back up his ass.... and then you say half of the peoples on this board are not ideologically anarchists ?? WOW !!!

    Why confront the nazis ? It's their freedom of speech, you should attack the peoples protesting against the nazis and defend the nazi freedom of speech....

    And why wouldn't you tolerate nazis protest in front of your house ? You believe in their freedom of speech...

    So if i understand correctly : when you get to set the rules you refuse freedom of speech for the nazis and you burn book, but when you don't set the rules you do the opposite and say they have the right to spread hate propaganda and have freedom of speech to fight against freedom of speech...

    :lmao: :lmao:

    why the hell are you confronting it if you agree they express their hate ideas because its freedom of speech ? i mean, you don't even want them to stop so why protest ?

    Ok so you are saying neo-nazis won the war by tolerating neo-nazis and giving them freedom of speech ? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

    that's probably why there are so many neo-nazis groups in this country, and that's probably why they are getting more and more popular and growing....

    you have a very weird definition of "winning a war"


    and actually, how do you think we are going to defeat capitalism and bourgeoisie without harming anyone ??? i bet you believe in their freedom too and you would oppose anyone who want to harm them

    YOU ARE A HIPPY DUDE !!!


    Anom doesn't have balls, dumbass

    Nazi hugger, definatly.

    "what kind of crack are you smoking" is less childish then "haha you are stupid" i suppose ???
     
  20. Anom

    AnomExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    The quiz was ironic and i didn't direct the word nazihugger directly to you because you weren't the only one and as Ungovernable mentioned i don't have any balls but i do have the ovarys to tell you that yes, ngnm, i do think you are a nazihugger.
    By defending their rights you do defend them and you defend nazism. You are defending the nazis' right to say and think what they want and i assure you they don't speak nicely about most anarchists but you obviously don't give me or anyone else here the right to think or say what we want. You might concider it to not be ok for me to say things to you that you might feel is in any way insulting of you, maybe hurting you even, but still you defend the nazis to speak very ill of so many of us. If you find my previous post to be ridiculous and what not that might be because after having read this thread it is quite obvious to me you will not understand more well formulated posts anyway.
    Oh and just one more thing, since you are the real anarchist and all, you might explain why i should do anything "for Christ's sake"?
     
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