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ETA - For or Against

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by antitude420, Jul 20, 2010.

  1. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 16, 2010
     
    I really am confused about what I think of ETA...For one side they're trying to liberate themselves from a capitalist government but on the other hand they killed hundreds of people in the making, innocent people...

    Opinions?
     

  2. JesusCrust

    JesusCrustExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Don't really know much about them except that i believe their ideology is Marxist-Leninist, and I'm not really down for that.

    I'm curious to learn more about them and what people here think of them.
     
  3. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yea, they're Marxist-Leninist, I'm not one too. I'm an anarcho-communis but they're also fighting for liberation, they want independence from Spain and they're government, obviously...

    I know a bit about them and I did some search because I live in Portugal which is right next to Spain. Also, they have/had recently bases in our country, so people and the media talks about it...
     
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Gora ETA militaria ! Euskadi ta Askatasuna, Askatasuna international ! besta bai borroka ere bai !

    This is the same story than Action Directe in france, the Red Army Faction in germany or the Red Brigades, or Bonnot Gang, the angry brigade or Brigada Rossa in italia, Ravachole, Emile Henry, Jacques Mestine, etc..... Propaganda by deed. Yes their actions and their ideas are questionnable sometimes but as a Pluralist anarchist i will not stand up against them, especially if they fight the real ennemies.
     
  5. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    100% down with ETA and Basque liberation and Autonomy
     
  6. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 21, 2010
     
    uh, I'm sorry, but the Euskadi Ta Askatasuna is a separatist movement to form an independent Basque state, including the spanish autonom regions of Basque Country and Navarra and the french part of Basque Country -
    Euskadi Ta Askatasuna means "Basque Country and Freedom".
    Their unique language ist the oldest in Europe and there is no familiarity with another language spoken on the continent. The Basques regard themselves as ethnical independent, non-spain and non-france, so the separatist movement started in the late 19th century to achive the independence of the Basque only by peaceful political means. But Basque Country was an important industrial region and the Spanish refused the movement.
    Even the Spanish Republic offered only autonomy for Basque Country and Navarre when 1936 the Spanish Military and the fascists rebelled against the government and Basque Country became geografically isolated from the rest of the republic.
    But the Basque declared to fight the rebellion, 'cause of this, Franco's allies, the german under-cover airforce bombed Guernica and shocked by this murderous concentrated air raid most of the Basque abandoned hope and franco had to overcome only minor resistance as he sacked the region.
    He too refused the separation of Basque Contry and declared the separatist movement illegal, so the ETA was founded around 1955 as an underground resistance organisation against francos dictatorship in Spain.
    Unlike the democratic movement before the war the ETA was socialistic orientated, more radical and militant, starting the "terrorism" against spanish authorities and the police/army. Some of the founding members blamed the movement for becoming too militaristic and left the movement, around 1970 a mainly marxist part of the movement separated, but I don't remember the reason, after this the movement still claimed to be socialist and that the coming Basque Country would be a solcialist state.

    Franco died, the ETA killed his designated successor and Spain became a democracy again, still refusing the separation, so the "terror" and the repression by the spanish authorities went on - untill today.

    The separatist movement lost much of the support of the "ordinary" Basques, five or six years ago less than ten percent of the people supported the political arm of the ETA - the illegal leftwing nationalist party Batasuna - by voting informally at the regional election - all other political parties deny support for the separatists - the ETA became isolated.

    I'm not that deep into this, so I might be wrong with more or less important details - please correct me if necessary - and I have to admit that I don't have a clue about their nationalism/authoritarian believe in the necessity of a Basque state or their problematic use of terror without being supported by the majority of their people. I'm not a pacifist, so propaganda by deed is one thing to consider, but the ETA is killing more people uninvolved than pigs responsible - reminds me of the german raf - a spearhead without a shaft - oh no, I know they were marx-/leninists...
    But I'm just a clueless Anarchist...
     
  7. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    Yeah,. i was under the impression ETA were an -anti-imperialist' National Liberation group, much like Algeria etc. I admit my knowledge is limited, but i'm not overly supportive of them, feel free to convince me otherwise.
     
  8. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 19, 2009
     
    I have to go along with ungov... they might have some shit about them that sucks (like killing journalists and ex-members who just wanted out and there marxist-leninist-nationalist political stance) but it seems that there not afraid to take out cops, judges, prosecutors, corporate execs etc. which im totally in agreement with. I also supported the RAF, and i support armed struggle against the government. My opinion might be changed... i see theres a lot of documentaries about the ETA so.. this is just my standpoint right now.
     
  9. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I'm all for armed struggle too, but this is insufficient to gain my support. More important is what are they engaged in armed struggle for. Are their political goals worth supporting? I'm currently of the opinion that they aren't, but i reiterate that i'm not overly knowledgeable about ETA.
     
  10. antitude420

    antitude420Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 16, 2010
     
    Yea, I'm curious about ETA and I wanted to know more so I could decide whether or not I suppor their cause...

    Any texts or movies worth taking a look?
     
  11. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I have no problem to accept your point of view, shamefully I have to admit that I had a more or less brief marxist/leninist phase in my youth and I was supporting the raf openly, defending their actions in fanzines and leftwing city magazines and I was charged a number of times for the illegal support of a terrorist organisation by the german authorities, 'cause of my youth I got away with fees and only brief time in prison, but I was getting even more angry because the repression.
    At this time nobody cared about aspects like being/acting elitist or acting "above" the little revolutionary movement, nobody cared about beeing supported by the revolutionary working class, our isolation was just a necessary aspect of warfare...
    My girlfriend in this time was a really dedicated heroine of the coming revolution, very smart, very active and together with others we passed some kind of "special" training outside germoney, and we did some minor damage after our return. The next step would have been to go underground and do some more serious damage - but the whole thing blew up because an informer and suddenly we were in really serious trouble. My girlfriend and I were lucky to be able to leave germoney, almost all of our comrades were arrested and persecuted, ending up with 2 - 5 years imprisonment - and our little part of the movement vanished completely.
    I don't have to mention that our "bad example" was very welcomed to the systems propaganda to the public, parents and relatives who not even knew and never supported our plans suffered police raids, interrogations - lots of trouble and damage on the personal level.
    Using some connections my girlfriend and I tramped all over Europe, ending up waiting for the end of the storm in bonny England, where we were living and working with some Anarchist punks. Not-THAT-stupid marxist/leninist that I was, I converted step by step to become an Anarchist and I don't regret it and I think I never will.
    My girlfriend didn't convert and we broke not only because of this, she left for the continent, but the storm was still raging. So she went underground bouncing between different groups, still wanted by the cops she was a risk for everyone, so nobody supported her.
    Sadly she ended up with a branch of the kurdish PKK guerilla and was killed by the turkish military on october 23th 1998, her name was Andrea Wolf, the remaining Kurds regard her as a martyr and dedicated a website to her, she also has an entry on wikipedia.

    Quite a story - here comes the point:
    The whole thing lasted nearly ten years of my life, ok. it wasn't completely wasted time and I've learned a lot.
    But: Andrea was killed, many people suffered repression, persecution and imprisonment, most of the activists never recovered, only a few are still active in the green party - so our little part of the movement vanished completely and was a loss to the general movement - and for what?
    Our little sports achived nothing, the raf achived nothing and vanished too (I do not miss it - good riddance to them)
    and only the system had an advantage: Justifying every fucking aspect of the fucking police state germony is with our useless example. The militant movement is gone completely, the revolutionary cells were never able to unfold under the pressure of the specialist anti-terror departments, the black block is infiltrated with specialist informers and nearly ineffective, it's a mess.
    More than 90 percent of the basques refuse the ETA - more than 97 percent of the germans refused the raf, and actually don't care about the fact that the german suppression authorities knew about the connection between the former DDR and the raf, they knew that the activists were hiding in east germoney, but they constantly "searched" for them in the BRD.
    The ordinary german don't thinks twice about the deaths in Stammheim or the murder of Wolfgang Grahms and a few others - "they got what they deserved" is the public opinion - what about the killing of a few drunken or freaked out kids shot by the cops each year? The public keeps silent, it's too difficult to critisize the cops and it may be dangerous too - so nothing changed - except the police state is getting more and more perfect.
    My limitation period is over, so they can't get me for what I've done in the past - but the scary image of the omipresent police state we have here is already preventing the development of a new, broader and more conscious movement.
    I'm trying hard to contribute to this movement but I have to slave to support my family, care for my daughters - so I can't do enough to achive more than the little bit of progress we achive with some neighborhood projects.
    We have a serious Bonehead problem in our area - can you imagine how hard it is to convince the majority of immigrants in our part of the city to use their right of selfdefence? 'cause they are scared of the POLICE reaction on themselves if they kick out the boneheads... and this while the cops on the street tolerate the most of the boneheads actions...

    Concluding question:
    Is the little release after some direct action worth the repressive reaction of the cops when we still lack the support of the majority of people to answer this reaction? Does it make sense to act like the ETA or the raf?
    Is it responsible to waste people, activism, efford and resources with out a constructive achivement?

    Sorry for the long post, it's not meant as my confession - but I think the practical example speaks louder than theory \m/
     
  12. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    I think true support in the Basque provinces is probably much higher than the 90% that you quote Vassily, but people won't admit to it for fear of repercussions. Case in point: Irish support for the IRA bombings and killings before the republic was formed were in truth very very high, but only when looked at in hindsight. At the time the general populace of Ireland condemned such actions in public while secretly supporting them wholeheartedly. Polls have a way of exaggerating on behalf of the ruling class after all.
     
  13. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    The 90%-thing doesn't come from "just" a poll - my lack of inglis langwitsch has confused it, sorry for this - it comes from a report of an official regional election for the parliament of the autonom region - I think it was held up 2005.
    The Batasuna is the political arm of the ETA and was declared illegal by the authorities because of this ETA connection.
    So Batasuna could not directly take part in the election and the activists of the movement asked the Basque voters to vote informally (??? - like: to give up a vote that doesn't count) as a sign of protest against the exculusion of Batasuna in the election. Only 8.84 percent of the basque voters followed this and gave a non-counting vote.
    (their vote counted nothing and was only registered)

    I think the voting was in private/secret like it is in most states that refer themselves democratic - repercussions may be a risk with more or less public statements like given at polls - but at a secret mass voting for the parliament?
    Ok. the authorities in charge of the election may lie just for propaganda against supprt for the ETA - as I said, I'm not very deep in the situation there, so I don't know what the spanish authorities are capable of.

    Anyhow, I still might be wrong, but I'm not opposed to the ETA, I wouldn't fight them unless they would try to put a bomb into my cabinet - I hope they have no reason to do it - and I would hide an activist wanted by the spanish cops if one of them would ask me to hide him/her - just like I was hidden and protected by people when I was asking for it...

    I'm just not sure about their reasons to fight for a new/own government that will have to be abolished along with the spain government or whatever government there is. Another, even if socialist, republic?
    The region where I live has a long tradition of separatism, we were the first self declared republic 1918, but I don't give much about this, 'cause I don't want to separate from germoney - I want germoney to vanish/be abolished along with any capitalist police state...
    (by the way: CNT and FAI are back in Catalonia, FAU in germoney is getting stronger...). \m/

    My own experience with armed struggle against the system still makes me worry about the loss of uninvolved or not really responsible people without a obvious result. The ETA is fighting since the fities... and Basque Country is still only an autonom region - change of tactics?
    I don't mind if one of the really responsible pigs has to face the consequences of his business against the people, but they are just exchangeable, kill one and the next in line will take the vacant place... and we still can't answer the repressive reaction of the system.

    Sinn Fein and the IRA had a strong support of the Irish people, proved by two years (1919 - 1921) of open warfare, the IRA was really like an army of well organized and equipped volunteers and so they were stong enough to give the war weary Brits the boot, I guess the Irish were a bit lucky - but ETA and raf acted completely different.
    Regarding themselves as elitist avantgarde, careless about the support of - or the communication/consence with the people they pretended to fight for - out of my experience the imminent risk is really dangerous:
    Getting too isolated/conservative/selfpreserving to give up a useless fight?

    For me the important question is "our" point of view concerning propaganda by deed and it's consequences - or our general consciousness about our opportunities of armed struggle to further our beloved Anarchist cause - if we succeed, and we will, there will be nothing left to separate from... so let's do it for the Basques. \m/
     
  14. Kobac

    KobacExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    i support ETA in few goals.They re trying and they fight for revolution.they want to change something and they re not affraid to do it.
    But that struggle for Communist regime,assassinations of innocent people is not my way of Anarchy
     
  15. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    oh, they don't fight for a revolution, their aim is the separation from spain - the Basque have the status of an "autonom region" within Spain - and finally the founding of their own independent state.
    Their political orientation is mainly socialist, and all of their statements I've found concerning basque country mention it as a "socialist republic".
    Killing innocent and non-responsible people isn't my idea of Anarchy too.
     
  16. fantomas

    fantomasNew Member New Member


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    Hi!

    Theres one thing in the ETA history, that takes me to think alittle bit diferent.
    At the begining, they only atack police, and government (local or Nacional) people, they lose some popularity, when they "start" to atack civil targets, just thinking who win's with that? ETA? or the Spanish government?
    In the atack from 11 march, the government, cames to the public teling the people that hwho do the atack is ETA, when they don't have a clue who is doing what... that declaration cost to the government at that time the reelection 2 week's later... so this littles "coincidences" makes me think... they don't are any saits but i like to see all the parts...

    See you mates! Just think from my head!
     
  17. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Demonstration in Bilbao in favour of prisoners rights
    The demonstration, organized by the Basque movement "Egin dezagun urratsa" was backed by political parties and social organizations

    A demonstration organized by the Basque movement "Egin dezagun urratsa" marched through the Basque city of Bilbao on Saturday to demand more rights for jailed members of the armed Basque separatist group ETA.
    According to the online edition of the Basque newspaper Gara, the website of mentioned group was supported by 5,000 people. Moreover, the demostration was backed by the Basque left wing party, Basque Nationalist EA party, Aralar, Alternatiba and Abertzaleen Batasuna, the association of relatives of Basque separatists armed group ETA prisoners Etxerat, and several trade unions such as ELA, LAB, ESK, STEE-EILAS, EHNE and Hiru.
    The demonstration started at 5,30pm from Aita Donosti square in Bilbao under the slogan "Egin dezagun urratsa. Eskubide guztiekin euskal presoak, Euskal Herrira" ("Let’s take a step forward. With all their rights, Basque prisoners to the Basque Country").
    The rally was organized on November 13th by several representatives of the political, social and trade unions sphere during an event that took place in Durango (Bizkaia) where they denounced the violation of prisoners rights.
    Pedraz allows Basque prisoner march, advises caution
    Judge Santiago Pedraz ordered Security Forces to keep close watch on the march to ensure there is no endorsement of terrorism.
    Pedraz gave his permission for the protest at the same time as he advised security forces to organise close patrols to ensure that no acts take place that aim to promote terrorism.
    The judge, on duty this week, made the ruling at the request of Public Prosecutor Jesus Alonso during an act in which he concluded that there was no "basis for supposing that either ETA or any terrorist organisation is behind the call (to protest)... or that there is any intention to endorse (ETA), its methods or its members, or to discredit or humiliate any of its victims".
    The Association for Victims of Terrorism (AVT), Dignity and Justice and Voices Against Terrorism all called for the march to be forbidden claiming that to hold the demonstration would be committing the crime of praising terrorism and that demanding recognition of the rights of Basque political prisoners "is nothing more than an excuse to pay tribute to the members of ETA".
    http://www.eitb.com/news/politics/detai ... rs-rights/

    The Spanish city of Bilbao comes to standstill as citizens protest against ETA
    Thousands of people in the Spanish city of Bilbao demonstrated against the Basque separatist organization ETA on Saturday, one day after the murder of a policeman in the region. With banners reading "For Freedom, No to ETA," the demonstrators marched through the streets of the Basque city on Saturday evening. Demonstrations against ETA had already taken place in other Spanish towns and cities during the afternoon.
    In the attack, on Friday, police officer Eduardo Puelles Garcia, 49, died when a bomb attached to his car exploded in the town of Arrigorriaga. The government has blamed the attack on the militant Basque separatist group ETA.
    The Basque parliament Friday observed a moment of silence in a tribute to Puelles.
    ETA, which is regarded as a terrorist group by the European Union and United States, has killed more than 820 people in its four- decade campaign for an independent Basque country created out of northern Spain and southern France.
    Recently ETA has born the brunt of increased police co-operation between Spain and France and has grown increasingly weak, with its support dwindling and hundreds of its members detained in the recent years.

    http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index. ... _against_/
     
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