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E.I.Y. -Capitalist version of D.I.Y.

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by ryan1980, Aug 30, 2010.

  1. ryan1980

    ryan1980Experienced Member Experienced member


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    @Bloody the fuck face

    There is no DIY in the business/corporate world. The "DIY" you speak of there is called business...
    The laws of supply and demand and capitalism as a whole are not synonymous. The concepts of supply and demand speak to RATIONAL HUMAN BEHAVIOR, not so much a certain economic model.
    Stealing anything never promotes caplitalism. The suggestion you gave that it fuels buying more things to replace the lost item- They're going to do that anyway if they want to stay in business, it's in their interest to, but now they have to do it with LESS CAPITAL. Capitalism inherently promotes itself. All economics models try to promote themselves, that's why they're economic models...


    I'm not gonna argue that reverting back wouldn't stave off capitalism, at least in part, but capitalism thrives within whatever structure it finds so long as the people are isolated and complacint. You have to overthrow the government and their economic models.




     
  2. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    :lmao:
     
  3. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    WTF ?? DIY in capitalist business, that's impossible. you dont even understand what DIY is about.

    "supply and demand" is a shitty liberal argument to excuse the presence of big business like mcdonalds or wal-mart that exploit peoples. Of course there is a demand for mcdonalds because it's cheap and poor peoples doesnt really have the choice....

    Capitalism CREATES FAKE NEEDS. It's consumerism 101 class.

    What a joke....


    Seriously there is too many wrongs in your post, i don't have the time to answer everything.
     
  4. snookams

    snookamsExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    companies probably lose more money in damaged goods then in stolen goods
     
  5. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    i just pissed 23 ounces of stolen iced tea.
    next time i have to use the bathroom i'm just going to say, "be back in a second guys, i've got cpaitalism to promote."
     
  6. JesusCrust

    JesusCrustExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    This made me want to listen to gang of four.
     
  7. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    me too! :thumbsup: lol
     
  8. JesusCrust

    JesusCrustExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Your kiss so sweet, your sweat so sour...
     
  9. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    <3 sometimes i thinking that i love you, but i know its only lust :ecouteurs:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. sarahsaturday

    sarahsaturdayNew Member New Member


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    Hello there! Thanks to Google Alerts, I discovered your conversation here about Earn It Yourself (and particularly your plans to "go to war" against me and the philosophy), and decided I may as well chime in!

    I'm not here to argue with you about any of your fundamental beliefs. Having studied philosophy for the last several years, I have a deep respect and appreciation for anyone who knows exactly what they believe and why they believe it, and for the most part you appear to be a group of people who have taken the time to think about what you stand for. I was genuinely happy to read through the posts and discover that many of you actually know what you're saying, and aren't just regurgitating something you've heard from the singer of your favorite band -- well, okay, there's the CRASS thing. But whatever. ;)

    I just wanted to address a few points that I found to be wholly inaccurate, unfair, and/or contradictory to your own stated beliefs. And I also wanted to make myself available for further discussion and debate. I love to talk about this stuff, since I prefer to find a way that people with different beliefs can co-exist on this planet, rather than fight against each other in unnecessary wars.

    Here are just a few excerpts from some of your posts, with my own thoughts and comments, plus my conclusions and contact info below. Thanks for taking the time to read this with an open mind!

    \m/ ryan1980 said: "I liked the part where she spoke of the "business side" of punk."

    :ecouteurs: I definitely never discussed the business side of punk -- of my own bands, and of music, yes, but not of punk. Be sure to quote your "enemies" properly so that your arguments are based on facts, not fabrications and lies.

    ---

    \m/ ryan1980 said: "Nah. War. Not like physical war, cause really, it's only one person named Sarah Saturaday, but a propaganda war? Yes."

    :ecouteurs: Is "war" any part of the anarchist or anarcho- agenda? Interesting. I thought the creators of this website called for "anarchism, equality, and peace." (See: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=332)

    ---

    \m/ ryan1980 said: "@JesusCrust Right. With DIY, you can earn it yourself. It's a matter of what you're trying to earn in the first place. Most bands in the scene try to achieve a level of notoriety FOR BEING DIY ADDHERENTS, thus promoting the ethics of DIY to kids in other scenes, which will then help spur that scene and so on and so on. This is inherently anti-consumerist. The D.I.Y. scene is not so much a tactic as it is a cultural network that seeks to replace capitalist routes to success. No one is saying you can't be successful in DIY - it's how one defines success."

    :thumbsup: I can agree with a lot of what ryan1980 has to say, here. You CAN earn success with the DIY approach -- in fact, that is one of the most basic premises of my entire philosophy. Ultimately, EIY is a philosophy that promotes having a philosophy. Defining "success" for yourself, based on your own set of values and your own "complete" philosophy (think "complete" protein - containing all the necessary pieces to make up the whole), and then working to achieve that success by means that adhere to your own philosophy, is every human being's right as an individual. Only in Totalitarianism/Communism societies is the individual's right to choose his own philosophy done away with. Are you guys anti- or pro-Totalitarianism? If you're anti- then you automatically believe that an individual has a right to think for himself and decide his own beliefs, in which case we are already on the same page.

    The Do It Yourself ethos is a near-complete philosophy, in that it has its epistemology, ethics, and logic (it doesn't really address metaphysics), and therefore it is one of many philosophies that would fall under the Earn It Yourself umbrella. And guess what? Your anarcho-punk philosophy also falls under the EIY umbrella, since EIY promotes the idea of naming your philosophy, defining your success, knowing your values, and then sticking to those values absolutely -- WHATEVER THEY ARE, under any circumstances. Really, I've created an all-encompassing system rooted in PURE OPEN-MINDEDNESS that includes any philosophy or idea that has been completely thought-out. To the extreme, it would even encompass those philosophies which we would probably all agree are wrong, if they were followed-through on absolutely, without compromise. Even fascists live by a philosophy. Remember: Philosophy = Life. You can't make a single decision without practicing philosophy.

    My personal EIY approach is largely rooted in the society and culture in which I grew up. I live in the United States and I participate in Capitalism, yes. I buy my food, clothes, and shelter (although right now I don't live anywhere, but I do pay for my storage space), and I pay people money or offer them trades in exchange for their goods and services. I watch ad-supported television programs and I use ad-supported websites on the Internet. In order to survive, I need money. In order to get money, I have chosen (as part of my personal philosophy) to earn money by selling my goods and services, rather than by stealing it from other people who have worked for it. I believe that stealing is wrong. But that's just me.

    ---

    \m/ ryan1980 said: "It's now an isolating philosophy where bands who haven't 'earned' it can't play or are literally not 'worthy' enough to stand along side bands that have."

    :ecouteurs: It's interesting that you would spend so much energy talking about how there is a "right" way (the DIY and/or anarcho- way) to live one's life, and that because you think my way is "wrong", I deserve to be blacklisted -- but then you try to say that it's wrong for me to blacklist bands (which, incidentally, I don't do) who have not earned their success according to what I consider to be the "right" way (which, if you read my website, I believe is the DIY approach). That's the most humorous error in this accusation, since it circles you back around and lands you directly on the same platform as me. The not-so-humorous error is that you obviously don't understand the EIY philosophy.

    ---

    \m/ ryan1980 said: "I say flood whatever you can. I can make 1" buttons that say DIY NOT EIY."

    :lmao: I have to laugh out loud about this (yes, LOL): are you going to purchase the materials to create said buttons from a company that sells them? Certainly you are not going to make the polyethylene terephthalate necessary for the mylar, or melt, pour and mold the metal for the pinbacks yourself? Have you also built your own button press, or would you have to buy one of those from someone as well? Will you be giving the buttons away for free, or selling them? We all know the answers to these questions. Basically, you're going to use Capitalism to acquire the goods and services necessary to create a piece of merchandise that promotes anti-Capitalism. Oops!

    My point about ryan1980's posts is this: he has some valid points, and I know what he thinks he is trying to say, but it sounds like his own philsophy still has a few holes in it. Ryan: feel free to call me anytime to discuss our different points of view! Perhaps we can help each other further solidify what it is that we each believe.

    Moving on...

    ---

    \m/ down_2_load_on_u said: "I know countless crust punks that work relatively shitty jobs to pay rent. So basically we're all E.I.Y. unless we decide to abolish capitalism."

    :thumbsup: Agreed! You get it.

    ---

    \m/ JesusCrust said: "Also, wouldn't doing it yourself count as earning it yourself in a way?"

    :thumbsup: Yes! Once you're trying to reach a goal by your own means, you have already begun to earn the outcome, whatever it is. Now, if you had someone else try to reach your goal for you while you sat back and did nothing, you would not be earning anything.

    ---

    \m/ chaos-ad said: "they are just another little shit saying they are anarchists."

    :ecouteurs: Again: please be careful when accusing your "enemies"! I have never suggested that I am an anarchist, which means you have posted false information. Take the quote in JesusCrust's signature to heart: "Speak the truth, even if your voice shakes."

    ---

    \m/ Shuei said: "while turning your back totally on D.I.Y?"

    :ecouteurs: Did I turn my back on D.I.Y.? In that case, I should probably stop writing my own songs, putting out out my own music, hand-making my merchandise, booking my own tours, and running a not-for-profit philosophical website that promotes the Do It Yourself approach.

    \m/ *my favorite* Bloody The Fuck Face said: "yes this person gave into there ideals but at the same time when it comes to capitalism .The system is fed by wants and needs and propagates to it accordingly many corporation were found it on a do it yourself philosophy which help them expand into there current empire of booming business.Their DIY though was sometimes rarely though found a dream of providing people great service goods quality etc but most the time fueled by greed.Greed is fueled with envy and jealousy which are forms of anger and desire which to direct oneself is to humble yourself.If you steal something it is in greed no matter how you look at it unless it is food which one needs to continue existence.stealing anything else but such is damaging anything but local faces that work to receive their own measly pickens but usually they themselves are ruined with greed and envy.Stealing promotes capitalism in its own way because then the object its self has value one desired it so it must be a desirable item it's place is thus filled back in with replacements.At the cost dollars backed up by no substantial means in the first place.To truly damaged e the economy and capitalist system one should do it their selves but that is no easy task that entails you have your independent water and food supplies and not to consume any bit of theirs.To build ones own shelter or home like my ancestor did when they moved to this country and farm.Using the internet at all fuels capitalism because you either stole or bought a computer ,using your own connection or someone else which is still consuming authorities goods.Stealing ups crime rates an expansion in crime rates results in more enforcers and enforcement leading up to the most unwanted state a completely Authoritarian state.The only way to unbalance and make progress towards a state of more freedom is to revert to older ways building your home growing,hunting gathering your own food and bartering the best form of economy because tangible goods are trade that the each other person desires.To completely upset the system and begin anew a civil war or up throw of government would suffice.By constitutional law in the Declaration of Independents one of the best damn things ever written we have the RIGHT the FUCKING RIGHT to up-throw the government if the American people do not see it fit to govern these united states of America"

    :thumbsup: Now, while it was somewhat difficult to make sense of this post, I think Bloody The Fuck Face comes the closest of anyone to hitting the nail on the head. If you are truly anti-consumer and anti-Capitalist, then the only thing you can do is completely disengage from any consumerist society, stop using any kind of trade system to acquire goods and services, and survive on only the food you can grow yourself, in shelter you build yourself, on land you acquire-- uh oh, we've already hit our first snag, unless there is any land left in the world to steal... But I still think this person comes closest to explaining what the real application of this website's supposed anarchist values would entail, which is why it's hilarious and ironic that you all go on to attack Bloody The Fuck Face, outing yourselves as not being true adherents to the philosophy you claim to live by.

    ---

    IN CONCLUSION:

    1. I'm honored that you guys have tried to take issue with my philosophy, and would be absolutely delighted to engage in an intellectual, open-minded discussion about the difference (and similarities) in our ideologies. I'm always looking to strengthen and challenge my own beliefs, in an effort to remain open-minded and objective about what is right and wrong. Message me to set up a time to talk: anarcho at earnityourself dot com (an email address I created just for this conversation).

    2. It seems as though a few of you still have some work to do on developing your own complete philosophy. I encourage you to keep reading and learning about not only what you believe, but what others believe as well, so that you can have a better understanding of where your "enemies" are coming from. And perhaps, learning to be open to other people's points of view might make your daily life a bit more enjoyable, with the stress of investing energy into hating people who don't share your exact values.

    3. When I finally build my cabin in Montana and cook my first meal made from vegetables I grew in my own garden, dairy produced by my own cow, and eggs from my own chicken, you are all invited. (Perhaps we are not as dissimilar as you thought?)

    4. My favorite part of scrolling through your posts was when I found ryan1980's sentence: "LOL, I found this: Which is a corporate business social networking site... http://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahsaturday" -- Next to his post, in this website's left-side column, are links to Facebook, Myspace, and LastFM, right below a post begging people to donate money to cover the site's Capitalist interactions with its hosting providers and domain name registration services -- or better yet, asking users to purchase a tee shirt from this site's ONLINE STORE. The idea of an anti-Capitalist website running a Capitalist online store, selling (for money) anti-Capitalist merchandise that was acquired and made using Capitalist interactions with t-shirt companies and screenprinting companies, not to mention the use of a Postal Service to mail out the online orders, is pretty much the funniest thing I've encountered in quite a while. You have to admit, you walked right into that one!

    Respectfully,
    Sarah

    P.S. If anyone would like any of my old or current bands' music for free, let me know and I will send you the download link! :ecouteurs:
     
  11. ryan1980

    ryan1980Experienced Member Experienced member


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    @ Sarah Saturday"
    Hi.
    I promise, this isn't going to hurt.
    So, wait, you think punk bands can exist outside of punk ideology/ethic, or were you speaking of bands that you were in that weren't 'punk' ? Punk isn't soley a genre of music. You can't seperate 'the business' end of your band from punk ethic which is overwhelmingly anti-capitalist/cosumerist. If the business objective was to make as much money as you could so you could pay all your bills. You missed the point of DIY. It wasn't so you can pay all your bills, it was so you can find ways to not have bills in the first place.

    You spent all this time studying philosphy and you can't appreciate something written metaphorically? Seems like someone answers this every week but propaganda is simply an idea that is diseminated within a given radius. That doesn't mean people don't exact logical fallacies through this tactic, but inherently, it isn't evil. If you're lucky, you might just get a poorly xeroxed zine in the mail condemning E.I.Y.:ecouteurs: As for whether war is a part of anarcho agenda? No. Nobody wants war, but I urge you to look up subjects like "structural violence and abuse" and see who is pepertrating what with regard to who wants war. It happens; Talk to the ones who lived through Catalonia or better yet track down someone who went to a g-20 event and ask them why they were there, and what they were protesting.

    So E.I.Y. isn't a philosophy at all if it's just promoting others to create their own philosophy? Does philosophy need a cheerleader (Im thinking of Plato with pom-poms cheering on on Socrates' Calvinball game ...)? And FYI- Some, not all, are anarcho-communists here, not authoritarian communism(Stalinist-leninist-Maoist) mind you, but would probably be offend by what you said. We all have collectivist ideals. Which, in part is why we embrace DIY and its ethic of mutual support. We are as the website clearly states-"...Anti-fascist, Anti-capitalist, Anti-authoritarian, Anarchist and... Punk". We believe government ruins everything; including philosophies on the issues of social order. Which is why authoritarian communism/socialism hasn't worked. (That's generally the consensus-not strictly speaking to what I personally believe, although I believe a lot of that...) We all participate in capitalism to some extent. I've tried to offer buttons to my landlord, but it didn't work, she wanted money and I signed a contract stating I would give her said money in the first place. If I participate in capitalism or not is not the question at hand. It's whether we embrace the ideals behind it as you do(presumably), or actively find other avenues to avoid or lessen the inequalities it creates whereever possible; and moreover find the root cause of those inequalities and demolish them. (The root cause to most of it, we already know as being capitalism itself....) The fact that you keep stating that EIY is about other peoples philosophical journey (whatever they may be)and that it can envelop D.I.Y. ethic means you don't have social cohesiveness with regard to actual practices. If you encourage everyone to develop their own philosophy/worldview and to go forth with it, then there's little chance EIY be that damn important to them as a philosophy in the first place. Through their own senses they percieve this world in conjunction with their given socialization and by the time they come to EIY, they already have a philosophy (at least in part) and all EIY does take credit for encouraging it? That's crap. Encouragement of convictions may be noble, but it's not a philosophy. There's no analysis or questioning the fundamentals of nature or being. Is there? I've read what you've written. I don't see it there.

    Indeed, it's very interesting that I would want to point out social normatives in anarchist/punk lifestyles which you seem to gloss over. I'm not saying that YOU blacklist any band, I'm simply saying that you readily reinforce the hierarchical structure that makes it so hard for bands to make it anyway. Correct avenues of 'legitimate' (legel) record labels/venues/managers etc... which all want a piece of the pie (your pie) for shit you could of done yourself at rates that well exceed what they actually do to help you anyway. WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE DO IT THEMSELVES and embrace others that dont care about profiting off your success to help them along the way. I booked shows for years because I wanted to see bands! I could've cared less about the money. I will always put people over a profit. Your ideals about not begging or having favors done for you is ludicris. What band exists without the help from others? You stated youself you would have killed for contacts...who gave you those contacts?



    [​IMG]Sarah, meet Laverne & Shirley...They're my buttonmakers. I MADE those buttons and screened the patches. I would've said 'purchased' if I was going to do such. I think someone needs to think a bit more about what she says before she says it...Yes, someone paid for them, and I do have to pay for parts. I buy from an American manufacturer so at least I know some 9 year old chinese kid didn't make them for .08 cents/hr. You seem to think all of us here are cavemen/women that can't rationalize anything. We use capitalism now because they use capitalism. It's our economic model for better or worse. Just because we agree to it, doesn't mean we agree with it. Does it lessen overall objectives; it's a vaild point to debate. It doesn't lessen what we know is ethically wrong. Chaining a 9 year to a loom in India and forcing him to weave rugs for no money is wrong. Paying teenage asian women .16/hr to make nike shoes for american consumers that are going to pay 150 dollar for a pair while the difference goes to to the CEO is wrong. Turning a blind eye to past human rights violations of the VF corporation that owns VANS, which happens to be a the major sponser of the Warped Tour is wrong.
    Campaigns against company:
    2001: workers at the International Garments Manufacturing Corp. in the Philippines strike to protest union-busting. Factory produces VF brand Wrangler and for Gap Inc. and these companies are pressured to intervene with factory management through a letter-writing campaign initiated by the Clean Clothes Campaign. Workers were not successful and financial difficulties forced them to accept separation pay.
    2003: workers at the Jaqalanka Ltd. factory in Sri Lanka are denied unionization. Factory produces for VF brand Red Kap and for Nike. Nike and Free Trade Zone Workers Union requested that Fair Labor Association investigate the dispute. After an FLA investigation and pressure from clients, factory management agrees to recognize union. 2004: National Labor Committee includes VF Corporation in a campaign against forty companies producing in Bangladesh. The goal is for firms to pledge to abide by legal labor protections for pregnant women. VF has not signed the pledge.

    How about Sago mines which was cited with 208 safty violations in 2005, for which they did nothing about until it collapsed in on 13 miners less than a year later. BP, anyone? Blackwater? I can go on and on about this. Information is key. If you don't know, then why care? How could you? If the store is in the shape of a box, you should think twice before buying shit there. You can't better capitalism if its sole goal is produce as much capital as it can. It will thus always look for the cheapest labor, slave labor included, it will always try to bust unions, it will always exploit its workers and manipulate the public so it will never care to know. You better believe I oppose capitalism. You've settled. You sat on the ground so long you expect capitalism to help you back up. You don't think humanity can do better, you don't think we deserves better?
    You earn your paycheck, we all do, but do you ever think to wonder at whose expense? Sure,your clients and certainly the middle class kids at the warped tour, but it never stops there, because it never stops. If you want to uphold and actively encourage a system that DEPENDS ON FALSE STRUCTURAL INEQUALITIES TO FUNCTION AT A BARE MINIMUM, then all I can say is, do your fucking research.



    I may have holes in my philosophy, but not in my conscience. :ecouteurs:

    Holes in my philosophy are expected because it runs concurrent with knowledge as a whole and I don't expect to stop learning (do you?). Holes in one's consciense are only ever due to ignorance and complacency.

    Speaking of ignoring, why didn't you bring up things like:

    Really? Several months and not once did she think it wasn't about the money?

    She tried to apply capitalist ethic to DIY ethic and failed, becoming "frustrated for months..."

    You want a challenge...speak to those.

    and don't quotemine; it's bad form. You know damn well what the rest of those posts said, and so does everyone else BECAUSE IT'S IN THE SAME DAMN THREAD. :ecouteurs:

    On a lighter note, I'd love to call you and talk about this. Since you suggested it but failed to PM a number, I'm forced to start dialing at random. I'll get to you eventually...
    I'll come over for dinner, too, but I won't eat eggs and I'll liberate the cow knowing full well it wont go very far because it's domesicated. :D
    and...

    AND GIVE US OUR DAMN BLACK FLAG BACK.
     
  12. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Seconded, serious Sarah, its a fucking insult.

    You may not realise it, but we are already at war. A class war. There is currently a small class in society whom benefit directly from the systematic violence and exploitation of the working class.

    It would seem rather odd to claim that EIY is 'all-encompassing' considering the hostility towards it from the users of this forum. This may be due to your claim of being open to both an oppressive set of social relations (Capitalism) and a free one (anarchism).

    Strawman much?

    "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice; socialism without freedom is slavery."

    "The anarchist concept of freedom is intrinsically linked to the notion of equality. That is, anarchists maintain that individuals are most free in a society in which there is economic, political and social equality. ‘From each according to their ability; to each according to their need’."

    "The concept of individual human freedom lies at the heart of anarchist philosophy. As such, anarchists seek to maximise the ability of individuals to live freely, in the absence of the arbitrary constraints imposed by illegitimate forms of authority. Anarchists therefore oppose all forms of domination and exploitation, and work, through both individual and collective struggle, to subvert all social structures based on these practices."

    We're not on the same page.

    Alternatively, we could not be hippies and lifestylists and actually try to organise and overthrow Capitalism and the State.
    You know? Like what anarchists do?
     
  13. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :lmao:
     
  14. sarahsaturday

    sarahsaturdayNew Member New Member


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    Sep 1, 2010
     
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Ryan! I posted that 'anarcho @ earnityourself.com' email address instead of a phone number for anyone to contact me, since I probably won't become a regular member of this messageboard, and since I don't usually give out my number on the first e-date. ;)

    Email me! Let's keep the conversation going!

    I'm also going on tour this fall (U.S. and Canada), so if any of you would like to come to a show, let me know! In-person debates are even more fun.
     
  15. sarahsaturday

    sarahsaturdayNew Member New Member


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    How about: "From each according to his ability; to each according to his contribution." ?

    I could live with that. :ecouteurs:
     
  16. we're_all_dead_anyway

    we're_all_dead_anywayActive Member Forum Member


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    Obviously you have a complete misunderstanding of what DIY is. It's not just another avenue for you to enrich yourself, it's art for arts sake. The DIY punk ethic really came about as a direct response to just that, the over commercialization of music, where money was the only important thing. It didn't matter what you had to say, if you couldn't make someone rich then you couldn't play.

    The first bands that started creating their own scenes and releasing their own records weren't doing it for the money. They were happy to have a place to play and somewhere to lay their heads at night. The "business" side of punk was of none their concern. And for any true artist it should be the same. Money, art, and business have no place together.

    Your whole appropriation of the DIY scene to attain for yourself fame and fortune (which I thought your uh, "philosophy" was against) is like those companies that took that iconic photo of Che Guevara and stamped it on a buch of useless shit to sell to ignorant teens. To make a buck off of rebellion. It took something that was originally revolutionary, that was against the established order and all that it stood for and diluted it until it lost all meaning. Now apply that to punk and DIY and see why so many people call you a sellout when you try to make a buck.
     
  17. AnarchistRoyG

    AnarchistRoyGActive Member Forum Member


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    Aug 3, 2010
     
    Get with the program, people.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. we're_all_dead_anyway

    we're_all_dead_anywayActive Member Forum Member


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    Oct 16, 2009
     
    Ayn Rand, ugh.
     
  19. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Sarah, with all undue respect your philosophy is a joke, your website is an insult, and I do believe between Ryan and Butcher you've been owned. You, young woman are absolutely partially to blame for the co-opting of punk into corporate mainstream consumerist society. Co-opting the flag of people who have laid down their lives in the name of anarchism is completely unforgivable. You've earned something alright, the contempt of your once upon a time peers and the admiration and acceptance of the Bourgeoisie. Off is the general direction of which we all wish you to FUCK! :ecouteurs:
     
  20. dwtcos

    dwtcosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    thats odd, i thought that was just a modern day american hipster.
     
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