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Death Penalty

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by sludgefuck, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    yes, you may be right that jefferson didn't actually believed in religion and i'm already forgetting most of the stuff i learned on an u.s. school - but calling him an philosophical anarchist is something i doubt for sure, the whole term is rather questionable.
    jefferson was the main influence behind the constitution, he was president and was re-elected, he ordered the army and the marine to suppress opposition in the states, under his command the police acted like the brits 40 years ago - raiding private residences and seizure of goods without search warrant. jefferson wrote much about freedom and democracy - but real life was something else, his slave holding is the most sad example - and yes, he was a racist too, in his Notes on the State of Virginia he wrote that the blacks are inferior to the whites and couldn't be released from slavery. washington, benjamin franklin and james madison were slavers too, so the founding fathers were no better than their lot: the rich owners of the land and the keepers of the political power, the constitution was written by rich people for rich people.
    agreed on the point that colonialism and imperialism are the darkest sides of history. but columbus was just a mercenary in service of the spanish monarchy and he opposed some of the atrocities of the conquistadores and critisized the greed and inhumanity of the crown, so his employers weren't really satisfied with his deeds. columbus "found" the americas - but others robbed the new colonies and killed millions for profit.

    to compare columbus with hitler is simply wrong - around 500 years history of the americas aren't similiar to 12 years "3rd reich" with "only" 4 years of holocaust and industrial mass murder. the americas were victimized by a multitude of people and colonial states - but the termination of the native population was never centrally planned and organized to reach a declared general final aim.
    for the nazis the "final solution" was the declared aim, the germans organized and ordered the necessary steps even in their satelite-allies like croatia or czechoslowakia where they installed fascist regimes under control of berlin. the only hinderance to reach the final solution was the war efford and the resistance of the attacked people on the front lines - i think it's a very unique crime, unmatched by any other crime in human history.
     
  2. Eggs_Isle

    Eggs_IsleMember Forum Member


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    Jan 24, 2011
     
    I'll respond to the other argument in a bit but...

    Does the context of time mean anything to you people? Some of you talk as if everyone in the world was evil before you were born. The comparison between hitler and columbus is a farce. The world worked very differently back then. Owning slaves and slaughtering "inferiors" was the norm then. Its just a fact of the matter. Its wrong to judge history through today's morals. I'm not saying genocide or slavery was GOOD but demonizing jefferson on account of his slaves is
    just plain stupid. Do you blame the greeks for
    being pedophiles? Im sure some of you do. It is
    such an egotistical self-centered mentality to
    condemn everyone who does not hold your beliefs (in historical context)

    I wouldn't call Columbus a hero, but I wouldn't call him evil exactly either. I'm not justifying genocide, but in his day the man who shed most blood for his land was a hero and so his reputation goes. I don't think we should exactly honor him but I like the day off so I'm pretty indifferent to people from different times. I mean fuck do you get
    pissed off at Genghis Khan?

    As for Jefferson, you have to consider factors that are not completely obvious. In that age, slavery was not going away anytime soon and blacks were still considered subhuman even in slave free states. Im sure he treated his slaves better than they would have fared in a world that hated them and had to work for slave wages anyway. There seems to be conflicting reports on his personal view of slavery which leads me to believe he was probably protecting his reputation. If he was an outspoken abolitionist he would've lost all his respect and credibility and for someone who had so much to offer that would have been a problem. I personally love Jefferson.

    Open your mind. The world is not black and white. You are not holier than anyone. And if someone brings up hitler or any contemporary mass murderer I swear to god...
     
  3. Eggs_Isle

    Eggs_IsleMember Forum Member


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    Jan 24, 2011
     
    And I call thanksgiving "thankskilling" every year non jokingly so I'm immune to any guilt :p ;) :ecouteurs:
     
  4. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    You are scolding a 13 year old who is struggling to understand things before you get all excited and "swear to god" again... ;)
     
  5. Eggs_Isle

    Eggs_IsleMember Forum Member


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    Jan 24, 2011
     
    Oh no, it wasn't directed at anyone specific. I wouldn't even really bother to reply in length to a 13 year old. Its up to them to follow of the road of self discovery. No, that little nugget of wisdom is meant for some who are far too old to hold the beliefs a 13 year old, some in this very same thread.

    Plus, I've never gotten worked up on something on the net ;)
     
  6. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    The key issue with such an argument is that you are, yourself, making a judgement on the morality of historical figures (by today's standards). You love Jefferson. Presumably cos his writings on 'the equality of man' or what the fuck ever outweigh the fact that he owned slaves?

    The point of critical explorations in history is to say: if we are serious about creating a truly free and equal society, then perhaps the writings of slaveowners may not assist us in doing so. When a feel good document about equality is the central political underpinnings of a society that is fundamentally anything but, such a document becomes insulting, ineffective (in achieving its lofty pretense) and redundant (as a political framework for a free, just society).
     
  7. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    &
    so this little nugget of history is meant for some who aren't too old to hold the believes of a (please insert) old including patriotic bed time stories about founding fathers... open your eyes:

    1688 german and dutch quakers in Pennsylvania protest against slavery.
    1761 the kingdom of portugal abolishes slavery in it's indian colonies - 1854 slavery is abolished in all portugese colonies, including brazil, 1869 slavery is generally illegal in the portugese area of control.
    1772 british judge lord mansfield declares slavery illegal in england, slavery contracted in other jurisdictions (such as the american colonies) could not be enforced in england.
    1774 thomas paine publishes "African Slavery In America" - as far as i know the first public call for emancipation of the blacks on the american continent.
    1775 the society for the abolution of slavery is founded in philadelphia.
    1776 thomas paine publishes "Common Sense", he is the first writer calling for independence of the colonies and the implementation of human rights - the pamphlet is sold 500.000 times at a time when the american colony had a population of 3.000.000.000!
    1787 thomas clarkson and grainville sharp (both are quakers) establish the society for the abolition of slavery in england.
    (1807 the transfer of slaves on british ships is declared illegal by the slave trade act, aug. 1st, 1833 british slavery abolition act.)

    1777 the independent state of vermont abolishes slavery.
    1789 member of parliament will wilberforce and prime minister william pim demand the abolition of slavery in england in parliament.
    1789 the u.s. states north of maryland start to abolish slavery, by 1830 the north is slave-free.
    1790 thomas paine publishes "Rights Of Man" to defend the french revolution and especially the declaration of human rights.
    1792/93 thomas paine becomes member of the french national assembly after the revolution, he argues against the execution of ludwig XIV. (former french king) and is arrested and sentenced to death on orders of robespierre. the later is executed before paines execution is executed - so paine survives and returns on invitation of jefferson back to the u.s.
    1794 declaration of human rights in france, slavery is abolished and declared illegal.
    1795/96 thomas paine publishes "Agrarian Justice" - condemnig private property on land and states his personal life motto:
    THE WORLD IS MY LAND AND MY RELIGION IS TO DO SOMETHING GOOD
    (i think it deserves the shouting)
    1799 francoise dominique toussaint becomes the first "black" gouvernor of the french colony haiti.
    between 1808 and 1860 the british marine rescues 180.000 africans from slave ships.
    1808 the importation of slaves into the u.s.is prohibited.

    and you, mr. venom want tell me that slavery was beyond of the horizont of jefferson and his accomplices and that it was impossible for them to free the slaves, because slavery was "the norm"? who needs to open his mind - or get rid of patriotic myths?
    loving jefferson...
    the evil redcoat-teabags needed "only" 40 years...
    for being an smart and adaptive despot on a macchiavellian scale, leading his people up from feudalism to become an imperialist nation:
    definitely yes,
    for inventing the monghol written language, ending centuries of tribal infighting via abolition of nobility and petty chiefdom and some egalitarian aspects of his monghol-general codex - maybe not, the monghols are still proud of some of his honourable deeds.

    recommended reading:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fogel
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_on_th ... ro_Slavery
     
  8. Bentheanarchist

    BentheanarchistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I was talking about the US schools calling Columbus the discoverer of America.
     
  9. Bentheanarchist

    BentheanarchistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I was just comparing Columbus to Hitler because some holoucaust historians have compared the White settlers genocide of native americans to the holocaust. I may have compared to unmatched mass murders though.
     
  10. Bentheanarchist

    BentheanarchistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    The founding fathers were bad because they stole the land from the Native Americans, and they owned slaves, and set up fake Democracy.
    They were also white like the British so they were the same as the British.
     
  11. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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  12. Bentheanarchist

    BentheanarchistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I don't support most of the founding fathers ideas, and I do not listen to things at school.
     
  13. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    it doesn't hurt to listen to the propaganda and to question it constantly (best thing to do is to question everything, everytime), by researching the backgrounds you finally find your own point of view. one can learn quite a bit about how the system works this way, learn from it and start working against it - or learn at least not to make the same mistake made in the past again. i had great discussions with american history teachers about thomas paine the proven revolutionary scraping deep into the "american revolution" - but ending up as a persona-non-grata in the distinguished clique of well-off sunshine-democrats spinning the red-white-and-blue myth of the home of the free.
    the bill for the ambiguous hypocrisy had to be payed for at gettysburg, quite a lesson to learn stomping around three days on battlesites and graveyards, a few kids from my class and me singing "i'm glad they drowe old dixie down"... oh god they hated us!
     
  14. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    @ Nike Mikhailovna:
    &
    Don't forget the war the germans started 1939 and the loss of 70 million lives all over the world by 1945, the majority of the victims were just civilians killed by brutal terror against the people - and the shoa wouldn't have stopped after the termination of the jews, blacks, asiats, the slavs in general were also on the list to be "sonderbehandelt" (specially treated) after the war would have been won by the masterrats.
    The invention of "industrial killing" was a result of the heavy war efford on the eastern front and the capture of millions of jews and slavs in the occupied areas, the masterrats feared a hunger-crisis like 1918 and tried to reduce the number of "surplus eaters" - starting with the most vulnerable groups on the list, jews, sinti & roma and - after the resistance grew - the opposition in the conquered countries.
    @ venom:
    Of course I do blame the ancient greeks, the same way I blame todays pedophiles and the organized abuse of children/ the bacha bazi in afghanistan/pakistan - and by the way and in historical context: the greeks were slaveholders too - philosophing all the time about the rights of man and freedom... sounds somehow familiar, eh?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/
    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3AvnWDYMpA&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
     
  15. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 19, 2011
     
    :ecouteurs: of course you are right, i didn't thought of that in context with a defined persecuted minority, thats why i wrote "only" about the final solution and the industrial mass murder - but yes, it's just one dire act in the big drama :ecouteurs:
    seconded, it makes no difference when a crime happens or has happened in history - we should never forget about that.
     
  16. Bentheanarchist

    BentheanarchistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs:
     
  17. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    And the bad joke that follows that isn't really funny:
    (...)
    (...)
    o_O

    And reading the penal code from 1976, which was reinstated by the american invasion force, I started to :'(
     
  18. Mitja

    MitjaActive Member Forum Member


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    Well if someone murdered a person i would send him to death penalty. Also i would kill all the nazis and fascists as well.

    And if a person tortured any cind of an animal. I wo uld send them to the prison for 8 years.
     
  19. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 19, 2011
     
    so you respect animals and want to see humans dead? why?
    and what do you want to achieve killing all nazis and fascists? just because they are what they are?
     
  20. Bentheanarchist

    BentheanarchistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Fascist and Neo-Nazis dont deserve death penalty. They are insane. Fight them but do not kill them, just do not let them have free speech. Fascism and hate is not a right. I want to fight Neo-Fascists and hate groups, but I also want to fight the death penalty.
     
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