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Criminals

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by Anxiety69, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
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    I have asked this question a few times and not gotten an answer, and I think it is something important to think about, so I am posing it here as a thread.

    In an anarcho-society, where there is no authority, police, or rulers, how would you deal with criminals? By criminals I mean those that even anarchists would find despicable, rapists, child molesters, murderers, etc. I have heard a few people here say there would be no jails, but how would deal with people like this? They will always exist.

    And what about those who do not follow the "rules" of an anarcho society? Those who continue to oppress or exploit others?

    No matter how well u can structure a society, there will be those who commit acts against one another.


    -the anxietist
     

  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


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    Aug 21, 2009
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    Communities-based cocial contracts. Order minus powers, the peoples take decide what kind of community they want to live in. As simple as that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law


    Rapists, pedophiles and other general asshole is a big minority of crime, which will be even lower once capitalism is abolished. I don't understand why this is the main argument used against anarchist thinkers.

    Prisons won't be abolished in 24 hours, just like the monetary system won't be abolished in a few days. It will take a lot of time and alternatives.
     
  3. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
    Male, 42 years old
    Long Beach CA United States

    Anything to back this up? How does capitalism have even the faintist connection to pedophilia or rape? (I mean actual physical rape, not the metaphorical raping that is cause by corporations and those in control.)

    While i would not use this as a main argument, I think it has relevance and is something that needs attention, especially if authoritative power was to be taken out. Would we just open the prison doors and let everyone out?


    -the anxietist
     
  4. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    In my opinion it would be treated like any other major decision, by research and a vote. The research would become everything leading up to the trial and the vote would become the trial.
    It is quite simple, those that undermine the rights and freedom of others should be punished one way or another. As for how? Jails seem to be one of the best solutions I know of, another might be to banish them, but that would just MOVE the problem to some other area.
     
  5. Bananaman

    BananamanExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 9, 2009
     
    It is a very very good question. I was never convinced that abolishing the state and structures of power will abolish crime. And if you ever had problems with violent individuals that are not all there mentally, you would know that they will continue to cause trouble no matter what society they live in.
    As for dealing with cases of violent crimes I think those should be a majority decision voted by all the people in a community. I don't think jails are such a good solution, the exclusion form the community or banishment seem like more appropriate punishments.
     
  6. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian BarbarianExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 19, 2009
     
    Well with the appropriate info to convict somebody for the serious crimes you listed. I say an eye for an eye. If someone rapes my son or daughter, or kills a family member of mine for a stupid reason then i feel i have a right to beat the fuck out of him or kill him myself. Because putting these assholes behind bars isnt enough in my eyes.

    Or, at least, whatever harm the person causes, the family that received the harm should be able to deal with the person in their own right. Fuck leaving it up to other people. And if a family decides to let a rapist be free or something like that, then that can be dealt with accordingly.
     
  7. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    If we have society, whats wrong with a group thats keeps the peace as humans like to congregate and when they do they someitmes get hairy as we don't always agree, thats what society is
     
  8. rebel

    rebelExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 13, 2009
     
    this is big topic but I will be short.
    1) I recommend that we don't accept solutions from this system than to use our own heads. prisons just make people worst. prisons are created by riches, the same as state. nobody asked slaves if they wanted the state and prisons. the state serve to riches to protect themselves from other rich conquerors and to exploit easier poor people. prisons are part of repressive department for punishing of poor who are not obedient to the law created by riches. even today politicians are financed by riches, so politicians create law like riches need it. so we should not respect the law of our enemy who exploit us. we should follow our mind.
    2) anarchism is solution for all economic crimes because in anarchism people will be economic equal. it means people will get what they need and they will not work 8 hours like today (in near history it was 16 hours of work per day) than how much is necessary for some kind of job to be done. production in factories would be maybe 4-5 hours of work per day. of course, I am not against factories, those who are, they can live in village and make food only for themselves, nobody stop them.
    3) if you watch today how much there are locked people in prison for crimes which are not economic ones, you will see it is so small per cent that community could deal with it without the state and prisons and police, and etc... just take as example one village where police don't exist. there are crowd of such villages. I don't see that there is bigger per cent of rapes or sexual misuse of children than there were is big presence of police. people live in peace, everybody like to have friends and that people respect him/her, so majority of people live in peace with people around them.
    -as I said, community can deal with individuals who make problems to freedom of other constantly.
    in community where I live, I would agitate that nearest people, the same as psychologists, must speak with troublemaker. periodically they should repeat it. if there is no positive result, troublemaker must be pushed out from community. that's the biggest punishment. no prisons, as I said, prisons just make people worst and it is creation of riches with which I don't have anything.
    about rapist and sexual misuser of children, community must decide, again, in my community I would agitate that first we speak with troublemaker and later if there is no positive result, he must be kicked out from community. in order that other community know that he is expelled, community could set something around his ankle, plus to have information in some common PC database.
    I believe when person/troublemaker stay alone, he will think about it and change himself, we are social animals and we need other people. if he is hard case and hard core individual, he can stay in the nature to live alone or together with other people like he is in some their community. of course, if they become threat as community which violate our freedom, we would have to protect us or to destroy them. the same as today we must destroy capitalism because it violate our freedom.
     
  9. bear saw

    bear sawMember Forum Member


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    Oct 12, 2009
     
    This question is very subjective and no crime has a simple solution. Punishment is itself a difficult word to define. But the thing that every crime as in common is that there is always a motive, whether or not the reason is apparent. So I believe that the punishment for crime should be comprehensive rehabilitation to change behavior and realize consequence. After all, isn't coming to terms with the self and the reasons for one's actions a philosophical penalty? I see that punishment rarely rehabilitates. Rather, it often instills revenge and resentment which do nothing to better the person (and the community in whole). I view the changing of behavior towards betterment as more rewarding for the individual and community than, say, 'getting even'. And isn't getting even just a continuation of crime, a cycle that only repeats itself?
     
  10. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    Look up the history of the police but i will be back
     
  11. contra soldado

    contra soldadoMember New Member


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    Alright I just hit a huge bowl and I’m going to be typing fast and hard for a good couple minutes so this will be long and convoluted… yeah. This question makes me wonder if anarchists in general have failed to carry their thoughts and values to their logical conclusion. If we want to abolish the state without wanting to abolish the morals it impresses upon us then we are fucked, because how can we truly be anarchists when we still think like statists? What I mean is thinking that there must be a “valid” or “authoritative” act of violence taken by a person or persons of credibility against true assholes as a deterrent for other assholes, and this deterrent will somehow hold society together.

    Here’s how this idea fails in everyday life.
    1. Cops do not exist for crime prevention. Crime prevention only occurs when a crime is committed or is about to be committed and someone (occasionally a cop, but usually just a passer-by by statistic probability) intervenes and “prevents” the crime. Cops almost never do this, their job is to hunt down the person afterwards so that the State can have their way with them. There is little evidence that more cops on the street makes a woman any less likely to be assaulted and in many countries she is simply more likely to be assaulted by police. Women in the US are often ridiculed and made to feel like a pain in the ass when they report rapes, I know a few who have had this experience. Also worth mentioning is the fact that it never seems to stop people from raping, especially since the people who do often happen to be in places cops don’t (or can’t) look (churches, military bases, government offices, corporate property, etc.) People usually commit assaults and rapes when they know they can get away with it and having and credible force like the police on your side is an easy way to do that. Sadly in most cases the people with the ability to really prevent crimes from happening are the people who just walk by. Ensuring that we don’t do that is our biggest contribution to crime prevention.
    2. Even if a criminal is caught and tried what is the justice in measuring say a murder against an institutionalized life of slavery? Does one equal the other? Is it even supposed to when the victim is never even consulted on what THEY want. Perhaps they want the murderer killed. Perhaps they want them forgiven. Are they wrong for wanting either? And should either be restricted from them in an anarchist society? I obviously, think not.
    If we are to assume that most if not all of the people in this conversation have a desire to prevent murder, rape, child-molestation, etc. then we should also assume that in the absence of a ‘legitimate’ authority to hold us back we ourselves would prey upon people who committed these acts since we would have a reason to unite against them, and would probably be in the majority. I think an anarchist world could potentially be far crueler to real criminals than this world is. But it would have to start with us learning to act on our own and disassociating justice with concepts like the police, the trial, and the prison. You know authority…
    While we can stop some crimes and punish some people, I imagine violent crime will be around forever. We just might as well be free while we rape and kill each other…

    There is never any guarantee for justice but never any potential limit to it. Anarchist justice is anarchy.
     
  12. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nihilism argues the poiht till there isn't any, it is a tool but should not be a mandate, only in the fact that it goes against the human trait of survival, generally speaking which is why 'the left' can't seem to get its a into g after a beating in the first half of the century, its like we've had our eyes covered with i-pods, it eats itself, some r happy for that but thats not anarchism perse, thats individulism totally and utterly which was born out of farrr worse times for an individual in 'developed' nations as much as exitensiolism reaching its zenith after world war 2 was helpful but ultimately hopeless, its a pychological survival mechanism for its time but not for all time.

    It as though history has not happened and we have not had the key to knowledge... and experiance nothing, where have 'you' been living, mars, i heard its hot this time of year

    I will defend an individuals rights to my dying day but not at the behest of others as much as the society is set up now yet more insidious but only 'human'.

    or we will never reach a goal, bit like a human that waits for food to come to it, ie: stupid.
     
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