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Communism/anarchism=utopia ?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by blacknred, Mar 2, 2010.

  1. miserablist

    miserablistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Feb 11, 2010
     
    That's not really the case. The Socialist Workers Party, the largest Trotskyist party in the UK, believe in socialism in one country and participate in electoral politics with an eye on gaining state power.
     
  2. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    all 'communists' believe that telling us how to do things is the right way, hmm sounds like god and no size fits all, things can help but not nec tell, oh and advice is diff

    theres more historical ref from the words of still 'communists' who sed they believed that they had to tell others wat to do and they were wrong, u'd be better joining a union that actually uses some of marxism, i spose but lets the workers make decisions for themselves.

    you can only advise and step in if gone too far but never take over
     
  3. back2front

    back2frontExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 26, 2009
     
    blacknred, you need to be careful there - the POUM were certainly Marxists (Partido Obrero Unificación Marxista) and POUM was formed against the will of Trotsky, was anti-Stalinist and international in outlook. In many circles Trotsky is considered a revivalist of Marxism. As with Marx and Lenin before him Trotsky was a promoter of temporary dictatorship and lest we forget that it was he who ordered the Red Army to attack the REAL revolutionaries in Kronstadt in 1921.

    How anyone can continue to promote the ideas of Marx or Trotsky and call it revolutionary is beyond me.
     
  4. blacknred

    blacknredExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 6, 2009
     
    No they don't . Ex member and they definitely follow the Trotsky path all the way (i'll find a pamphlet , if you like :lmao: ).Not sure if they directly participate in the charade that is parliamentry democracy , be major shift if this is so .I know we used to say "Vote labour but fight for a socialist alternative"or something, as a 'tactic ' .Didn't rest easy on my shoulders, one of the reasons i left.
     
  5. blacknred

    blacknredExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    POUM were considered and generally accepted as Trotskyist , which doesn't mean they were ! Any anti-Stalinist communists were labelled Trotskyite .Indeed the Trotskyists looked on the POUM as a party along the lines of the Labour party albeit a left wing Labour party.
    No denying the Marxist mantra is for a revolutionary party to take control of the system . Thats what dictatorship of the proletariat(by the proletariat ) is .Ulimately to dismantle it .Back to organised road to utopia !
     
  6. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    didn't work, won't work, own members sed so, humans won't allow, too much info too
     
  7. blacknred

    blacknredExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 6, 2009
     
    :lmao: That's a bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it ?
     
  8. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    yes when you've actually seen it, think cocksparrer sings about this
     
  9. blacknred

    blacknredExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 6, 2009
     


    Think i've a cd somewhere of them (tho' don't rate them ) . Out of interest , track ?
     
  10. miserablist

    miserablistExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Feb 11, 2010
     
    Ex-member too. :D If all us ex-swappies banded together we would be unstoppable! ;)
    I've had conversations with regards socialism in one country with members both when I was in and since I left the party and the theory of socialism in one country fits with their warped anti-imperialism. Plus they do participate in elections but usually through other orgs like Respect and the like.
     
  11. Rathryn

    RathrynExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    Meh, I'm going on coke at the moment and that doesn't make sense, could you list sources for that?
     
  12. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    it don't make sense on coke? naa i saw it in a doco, stalins a good example
     
  13. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    Azerbaijan oilfields r a good example of why the idea don't wash.
     
  14. blacknred

    blacknredExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 6, 2009
     
    Sorry , i've no idea what your on about either ............
     
  15. back2front

    back2frontExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 26, 2009
     
    blacknred, yes the POUM were technically Trots but as I mentioned they formed against the will of Trotsky, though I expect these semantical asides are neither here nor there. My earlier point was that Marxist, Trotskyism, Maoism (or any other development of Marxism) are not revolutionary because of the tendency towards temporary dictatorship (which is never temporary), or in the case of the SWP and other socialists - party political in outlook. All told these ideas which we consider left wing are principally the same in outlook as the right, in the sense that they follow the construct of top-down beurocracy. A socialist government cannot implement socialism, only people can so the sooner we get away from 'parties' the better. That's why I believe anarchism stands against both the left and the right. Or at least that's my 2 cents....
     
  16. blacknred

    blacknredExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I tend to disagree..........sort of .
    We wont go into Trotsky/Nin fall out .
    Re-Marxism, Trotskyism. We'll take it as read Marxism is "Revolutionary party to TEMPORARILY take control for dismantling the state" .Trotskyism is (again sort of !) as Marxism but Trotsky advovates "permanent revolution " which ,as you allude to - i think ,the revolutionary party might (?) not be quite so inclined to be temporary . Thus the proletatiat should be on their guard in readiness for this .
    Or something along these lines .Even now , i don't discount the Trotskyist view .
    SWP, been 12 yrs for me so perhaps significant change in policy but party line is/was that " SOCIALISM MUST COME FROM BELOW(that's us) , IT CANNOT BE ENFORCED FROM ABOVE". Make of that what you will .
    I also see Anarchism as another Socialist tendancy .Think Bakunin considered himself a socialist .Remember , i did sat think.....................
     
  17. ASA

    ASAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    u shud black and red......or u have no right to trot out these 'theories'
     
  18. blacknred

    blacknredExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 6, 2009
     

    Boom, boom :D
     
  19. Robino

    RobinoMember Forum Member


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    Feb 25, 2010
     
    The Zapatista movement, "Zapatistas" live in anarchism..
    Been like that for bout 20 years now..

    historical examples:
    - Syndicalistic Spain
    - Anarchist farms in England
    -Autonomous Shinmin region
     
  20. Robino

    RobinoMember Forum Member


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    Feb 25, 2010
     
    *bump*

    Marx ideas can be very revolutionary, I believe that council coumminst and other libeterian socialist is just what the anarchists need to make revolution...
    And communism is pretty revolutionary if you compare to modern society, now I mean the clean Marx communism, not the dictator one á la Lenin/Stalin/Mao.
     
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