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CNT or IWA flags ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ungovernable, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. AnarchistRoyG

    AnarchistRoyGActive Member Forum Member


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  2. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    thanks a lot, looks good

    i might buy the red and black flag with the black star, i hesitate between this one or the anarcho-communist flag from the other website posted previously

    however i am still looking for a CNT flag :(

    edit : nice they have a red and black anti-fascist action flag, if i saw it before i would have bought it, but i already bought a black AFA flag from fire and flames

    the animal liberation flag also looks good!!
     
  3. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    i just ordered 3 flags from this website.... the "stop nazi" one, the "animal liberation one" and the red and black flag with the black star

    ok now i probably 10 flags here, i'm such a flag-whore....
     
  4. SurgeryXdisaster

    SurgeryXdisasterExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    har har i've got the exact same one from the bottom of that list, the one titled "Totenkopf"

    Cept i bought mine at some random ass flea market
     
  5. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQbyB8sOXo[/video]
     
  6. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    nice a hat like burruti's hat (at 0:35) !!! i want one hahaha
     
  7. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27qsCiEvVhQ[/video]

    VIVA LA FAI!
     
  8. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    ohh i see.. thanks for giving news, i was really wondering what happenned for him !!!

    give us news about him
     
  9. AnarchistRoyG

    AnarchistRoyGActive Member Forum Member


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    That is the "gorro" or "gorrillo" (garrison cover/cap, field cap, envelope hat) that the CNT and FAI and FIJL wore in the Spanish Civil War.
    Info:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrison_cap
    Here is a non-red & black one from the SCW:
    www.todocoleccion.net/gorrillo-o-platanito-infanteria-guerra-civil-espa%C3%B1ola-1936-39~x21404770

    Here is a reproduction of the red & black one:
    www.todocoleccion.net/gorrillo-miliciano-cnt-fai-guerra-civil-repro~x12920245
    ("gorrillo miliciano" means (male) militia garrison cap)
     
  10. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    too bad to spoil the fun, but i think it's necessary to mention that this company is selling nazi-memorabilia too:
    the "wafen-XX" fieldcap (4. from left) was part of the uniform of the nazi waffen-ss, responsible for many massacres of hostages and civilians during world war II. the development of the waffen-ss was heinrich himmlers project to replace the ideological unreliable german army with a "political" army under his command.
    buying things from this site?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS - for more information
     
  11. AnarchistRoyG

    AnarchistRoyGActive Member Forum Member


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    Honestly, I don't think that is an issue. They are selling stuff from both sides in the war, and it's just a fact of reality that fascists were on the other side. I don't think it promotes that stuff, and I don't think we need to be so "politically correct" that we tie one hand behind our back all our lives and stop ourselves from doing things which in the grand scheme of things are no big deal.

    I really urge people to chill out about this sort of thing. You really limit your life severely when you start thinking and acting that way, and it is one of the things that makes ordinary people dislike radicals, and be unable to relate to them.
     
  12. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Are you serious? Since when do we give a fuck what 'normal' people think of us? Supporting a website or store that sells Nazi or Fascist memorabilia for profit and not caring is supporting capitalism in the worst way...honestly it is an issue, and it has nothing to do with being PC it has to do with radical activism and not giving in an inch when it comes to promoting National Socialism or any other Fascist branch. Your apathy is really surprising.
     
  13. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    i don't want to start a witchhunt, but i want you to know that i had to fight people wearing this kind of stuff in Italy, France, England and germany after their kind drove me out of my motherland by treatening my family really serious. for "them" it's a big deal to embrace the murderous tradition of the original wearers of these caps.
    and they make it a big deal for me treatening my, my familys, friends and comrades lives.

    my life is already limited by the knowledge about 47 family members vanishing in summer 1944 at Auschwitz
    and a childhood and youth with a mother chronically suffering from the "fact of reality" that she only survived the age of three because people who had to die bribed their murderers to let her stay in an orphanage.
    for her it's a big deal too, she would have broken in tears for days seeing this cap...

    and whats your feeling seeing the stuff of Durruti's "fact of reality" enemy-allies on the same site with the stuff he and his comrades wore fighting fascist and dying in the hail of german and italian bombs on their trenches at the aragon front or the defence of madrid?

    your grand scheme of things is real life - not only for others, and you've to decide which side you are on.
     
  14. AnarchistRoyG

    AnarchistRoyGActive Member Forum Member


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    It's just a store that sells stuff from the war. This is not about controlling everything and everyone, this is everyday life. It's just a store. People who have wanted to make the world suit their emotional experiences, fears and anger have made the world a pretty ugly place by setting too-strict a set of rules and morals. There clearly are examples where some materials are inappropriate, but this specific situation, in this specific context, I do not believe this is an issue worth getting upset about. It isn't even an issue, and I'm personally surprised that people here, of all places, would react this way. That really is an excessive and politically correct kind of approach to the issue.

    I'm not happy about that stuff existing, but I don't see evidence that they are promoting those ideas by that stuff being offered for sale. It is better to live in a world where a symbol loses its power because people's ideas and hearts have changed, and not because people were forced to never see something people didn't want them to see. Also, the important thing about having a position is to pick your battles wisely. This type of behavior, taken to extremes, actually hurts more than helps, and drives people away more than drawing them in.

    I am sensitive to a number of things myself. The problem with the Spanish Civil War right now is that it is so hard to find materials produced by the Loyalists that people are forced to deal with sellers like this, who very likely have a neutral view of the situation and just want to sell antiques. In the future I do hope that we have more sources that specifically have anarchist items, but even so, we are anarchists, not elitists, not control freaks, and not PC Marxist-Leninists. So yes, I hear your opinion, and I disagree with you, and I trust others do as well, weighing all points of this specific issue.

    You say "sorry to spoil the fun" and "I hate to start a witchhunt". Well, this depends on the question: Are you simply stating an opinion or are you actually acting as the authority to give an order or administer a punishment?
     
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    But there is evidence that they just don't care about selling fascist stuff and stuff that can be used by fascists to promote their ideas. This is a problem. And by buying the anarchist flags there you help to fund fascist propaganda..

    Would you buy a punk album from a label that is also selling nazi stuff ?? Would you say "it's just a label, selling CD, they don't care" ?? The excuse of being apolitical to tolerate nasty stuff is one of the worst problem today.


    People who were careless to fascist propaganda and symbols also made the world a pretty ugly place by tolerating hate propaganda....
     
  16. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    starting with your last paragraph: i think "it" doesn't depend on my answer to your question, but on your way to deal with critics or points of view beyond your apathy - and i am sorry to say: your ignorance.

    you obviously haven't heard punkmars or my opinions - responding with the same ignorant arguments again (just a shop...) and a salvo of empty knockout phrases about control, pc-authoritarian behavior - and my personal favorite:
    followed by:
    but this one is just bottomless:
    so the whole bunch of people important to the anarchist revolutionary movement, from Bakunin up to Durruti, are responsible for the "pretty ugly" world we have to live in, because most of them are still known for their eagerness and devotion to make the world suit their "emotional experiences" by taking their place on the barricades to fight off repression and fascism, risking their lives out of fear and anger?

    what about hierarchy, religion, ambition for power and profit ect. - more acceptable, because just rational and guaranteed absolutely free of morals?

    really surprising that supporting a shop making profit with fascist memorabilia is an issue on a website run by a bunch of anarchosyndicalists dedicated to the causes of ...Anti-fascist, Anti-capitalist, Anti-authoritarian, Anarchist and... Punk - just a tip: it's the a bit too small white-written line in the upper right corner of the board index side.

    and for the rational aspect: the money you spend on the gorrillo miliciano is not only profit without a care for history, or respect for the people who wore the originals, - part of it is reinvested in replicas of the wafen-XX fieldcap sold to just-a-fascist-customer - i guess from your point of view he has the right to look like a real nazi while beating the shit out of sensitive subhumans like me or any other antifascist following his/her "emotional experiences".

    you're completely ignoring punkmars argument - so i will take it personal that you are sensitive (...) TOO.
    people combining my gender with the term "sensitive" get two word from me as a reply: FUCK YOU!
    and i really hate to have to say it... and it's soooo anti-pc!

    i completely agree with punkmar because i am a radical activist and i am not giving in an inch in this.

    i didn't attacked you with my first post, i tried to point out the issue to you - asking a question and after your reply i gave you "facts" about the crimes the original wearers of your "antiquity" committed and the consequences those crimes still have.
    i didn't mentioned the victims religion because it was just an excuse for the holocaust and i am an atheist - but you are ignorant enough not to notice this and came up again with this stupid pc-argument.

    is it ignorance or just the lack of knowledge calling the Spanish Revolution a "civil war" and the Anarchists fighting for this revolution "loyalists" to the republic that refused them arms and support?
    but i guess you have to suffer too much to think about that, because your problem with the Spanish Civil War right now: to be forced to deal with sellers like this - "just a store".
    :ecouteurs:
    maybe sometimes it's too easy to call yourself an anarchist? just words, i guess.
     
  17. AnarchistRoyG

    AnarchistRoyGActive Member Forum Member


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    I was thinking of that situation. (Though no, I totally disagree - tolerating "the nasty stuff" is not the same as tolerating someone selling historical antiques from a war.) I guess a good example is the way you could go to a record store and find CDs by the Angelic Upstarts, but they also had the soundtrack to "Romper Stomper" which included some music by Skrewdriver. They aren't intentionally promoting it. Of course if they had actually Skrewdriver albums I would be really uncomfortable shopping there, though people have said to me that folks buying or listening to stuff by Agnostic Front and the Dropkick Murpheys wasn't exactly radical, even ifa person was a radical anarchist skinhead or even a "redskin"... but this just kinda shows how life isn't perfect.


    I've seen people in the drawing/cartooning scene who are into goth, industrial, and steampunk imagery and people in the gun collecting/militaria scene who both liked the aesthetics of the nazi uniforms, helmets, caps and gas masks. I didn't like it but alot of decent people who just thought the stuff looked cool liked it. Among them from time to time would be a few actual racists, and some people who were conservatives who admired the NAZIs... but the majority were just people who thought the uniforms were "cool" or "sexy". If you complained about it, people said you were intolerant or whatever. It was frustrating. I basically learned to pick my battles more carefully, and oppose the openly racist and pro capitalist stuff, but also promote anti-fascist symbolism to counter the fascist stuff.

    And I disagree that "People who were careless to fascist propaganda and symbols also made the world a pretty ugly place by tolerating hate propaganda" .. no. its the people who very much intentionally used it who made the world an ugly place. We need to separate freedom of speech and historical archives from actual intent, otherwise we end up looking rigid, inflexible and dogmatic. If there were a real objective threat of fascism looming (and some signs of which would be that popular intellectuals and artists and musicians would be marked for death by fascist groups) I would of course think otherwise.

    Not to mention, a place that really supports the right wing ideas wouldn't be selling the left wing or anarchist stuff at all, or would be saying abusive stuff about it in the descriptions. One example is the Osprey Publishing book "The Spanish Civil War 1936-39", ( www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Spanish-Civil-War-1936%E2%80%9339_9780850452822/ ) ... the first thing about the book that gives a good idea of who's side it supports is the cover. It shows the Nationalists. Secondly, it uses the typical tactic of blurring the distinctions between the anarchists, socialists, liberal republicans, and the USSR supported Communist Party. It also distorts history by using spin doctoring, and also subtly altering historical images by redrawing/painting them with the faces or body positions subtly changed (and this is a big reason why Osprey kind of sucks, but when it comes to data for making figurines and the like from the Spanish Civil War, it's the only source the toy and model companies seem to be able to find.) ... and yet even in this case, how do we know the publisher openly supports fascism? Maybe they are just hardcore capitalists who (as usual) don't mind dictatorships so long as they are on "our side". Would possession of the book mean a person has sided with fascists, or is supporting them? I think not. The world is more complicated and nuanced than that.

    As for the potential for the fascist stuff being sold as memorabilia to somehow support fascists, this just isn't good logic. "Maybe" it will and "maybe" it wont, but if the implication is that the only way to save the world is to have all the stuff destroyed, this isn't valid logic. The existence of the Buddhas of Bamyan in Afghanistan never caused people in Afghanistan to convert to Buddhism for hundreds and hundreds of years, yet the Taleban destroyed them anyway because they were intolerant, dogmatic and emotional. The mountainous pile of soviet pins, patches, posters, medals, busts, awards, books, and so on that has flooded out of the USSR (they were some of the first things Russian immigrants were selling after the USSR's collapse) have not caused people to convert to Communist Party members simply due to their existence.

    Fascism is a conservative & capitalist reaction to anarchist and other radical movements that are successful. Its only purpose has been for the right to attack suffering workers or racial & cultural minorities who are resisting institutional oppression. It is far, far more effective to engage the ordinary people in the population of your country and explain (and prove) why humans from different cultures and with different colored skin or people with disabilities or other beliefs or sexual orientations have a right to exist and are not a threat, and to help people understand why the suffering caused by capitalism or rampant religious belief must be stopped, than to simply attack symbols and objects. A symbolic, emotional and subjective "war" is just child's play compared to a real, objective and effective battle against the real problem: the ideas. The ideas are what drive people to kill, not the symbols and objects in themselves.

    About Bakunin, Durruti, and the rest. These people opposed capitalism and fascism at crucial times. They were amazing human beings who picked their battles well. The difference between open mindedness and dogmatism has been situations such as the Communist Party behaving like every moment of life is the same as the moment of struggle against a military enemy (and this is why they instituted the policy of "democratic centralism" - to give a political body the form of a hierarchical military command body), so everything remotely resembling the enemy is banned, destroyed, etc... (and anyone even remotely suspected of "Reactionary" behavior is thrown in jail or watched) and more and more stuff is defined as "the enemy", so eventually life for ordinary people becomes difficult, stiffing, etc. A good example here is the difference between the early radical Malcolm X who refused anti racist help from truly well meaning white anti-racists, and the later Malcolm X who welcomed it. One battle was simply symbolic and emotional, while another battle was meaningful and tactically sound.

    Not to mention, the symbols of the right from Spain are rather banal and dull. Who really cares about that junk? And the fact that both sides wore similar looking garrison caps (gorrillos) just goes to show you that this issue isn't that serious. For example, many anarchists would have worn the Spanish M26 'con ala' or M38 'Eibar' (or Soviet M-36 which resembled the German M-35) helmet but I figure the other side would as well.

    At any rate. If you refuse to buy the stuff from this seller, and the one with the flags (the BANDERAS company), I understand and accept it. In this case, the links I'm finding are just examples of stuff to look for elsewhere. The point was to show what exists, as so much anarchist and true libertarian (socialist/anti-capitalist) materials, people and ideas have been destroyed, and the right is trying to take over all anarchist ideas and symbols and labels on the Internet (just as the authoritarian left has tried to do with anti-capitalism.) The important point about anarchist history is that anarchists have shown it is possible to be individualist and egoist without being a capitalist/marketeer, it is possible to believe in freedom and liberty without believing in the rule of the market and property. And it is possible to oppose capitalism without being authoritarian. Capitalists are trying to make the world forget this just as religious people are trying to cover up anthropological evidence that humans can happily have sex without marriage or child bearing and scientific evidence that life can evolve and societies can be happy without the need for a God or religious morality.
     
  18. AnarchistRoyG

    AnarchistRoyGActive Member Forum Member


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    I understand the problem now. The first link (Seller name "vogel37"), which showed the generic "gorrillo", I was just showing as an example. I was not suggesting anyone buy from that person! If they wanted to, they could, but it's up to them. I was not in any way reccomending it, I just wanted to give an example of the generic variation of that hat.

    The second link (seller name "caraquemada", with the red & black "gorrillo milicianao", was the one I was suggesting people buy!

    Based on photos and posters I have seen, not to mention movies like "Land and Freedom", "Libertarias", and "¡Ay, Carmela!", there may be different sewing patterns for the red & black gorrillo, and different places the lettering was placed. There needs to be more research done before proper replicas can be made.

    Anyway, my apologies for the misunderstanding, though I still believe it is a simple reality that there are cases where materials from both sides of the war would be sold by the same person, and it would not mean one supports fascism by buying from them. As for the insults flung in my direction, or the straw-man positions assigned to me, I'm used to seeing that sort of thing in political debates.

    Everything I have written with regards to my "it's no big deal" attitude has been with the STRICTEST assumption.. and I am VERY serious about this.. the STRICTEST assumption, that the hypothetical store we were talking about was selling stuff from both sides PURELY for historical and collector purposes, and if I thought for even one moment.. ONE MOMENT.. that they had ANY support, sympathy, or common cause with fascists, or that their money went towards a fascist cause I would NEVER, EVER, EVER support them or suggest people buy from them. Not for ONE moment.
     
  19. Bakica

    BakicaExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok, sorry for asking but why do you guys want this stuff anyway ? I mean, wow its really cool to have an anarchist flag, or animal liberation flag, but its like 15 Euros for what ? Whats it used for ? I wanted to have this stuff before, and I simply went to the guy that can make me flags and stuff with that material, and its much cheeper, dont see a problem with that.


    Anyhow, buying products from a company which selles fascist flags is against are views i think.
     
  20. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    I want this stuff because it represent my ideas and look good in my appartment, its better than putting other meaningless bullshit on the wall.

    There is no place here where i can print custom flag, and even if it existed it would cost over 15 euros...
     
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