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Anti-Semitism

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Anxiety69, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    i do think a thread on this is an important topic, so i am continuing this from a dead off topic thread. If jews are not a race, then why are there features that they have in common? things like big noses and bags under the eyes is consistent among jewish people, including my family, so flat out denying they are a race doesn't float with me.

    Though frankly, i don't care if you think they are a race or not, or just a religion as long as you are not discriminating against them. And also again I'd like to point out that just because someone is jewish, or of mixed jewish heritage (like myself) DOES NOT mean that all jews support the horrors and atrocities of the nation of Israel. I certainly do not. I feel it was wrongly taken from the Palestinians, but that does not mean I support the terrorist tactics used as retaliation either (though i do understand why it's used.)

    If you say it is ok to hate jews because it is a chose religion, you are an ignorant fool in my book, and I declare you my enemy.
     

  2. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    People are a little ignorant when it comes to this topic Anxiety because no other religion is so closely tied into one race...the Hebrews. To reject Jewishness is to reject a people, to reject Judaic Scripture or modern Zionist agendas in my most humble opinion, is not anti-Semitic. Some anarchists and left libertarians blur these lines and it is quite insulting. Also the word 'hate' gets thrown around much to easily, if militant anarchists are hating anything then they are not creating a revolution from feelings of love but from the bitterness of hate which we all know leads to disastrous consequences (Cambodia). I don't hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists... however I am vehemently opposed to their forms of 'spiritual' indoctrination. There is a clear and distinct difference....
     
  3. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Traits and features in humans aren't exclusive because of race but because of the conditions in which people have evolved. Also it would appear that such traits are sometimes inherited (not always) from common ancestors living in close communities (followers of the Jewish religion will most likely end up marrying someone who is also Jewish). This is all very dependable, but being a quarter maori, I don't exhibit typical maori traits such as broad shoulders and large height or even the dark complexion. This is because my maori genes aren't as dominant in my DNA as my Caucasian genes.

    I know that, there is numerous groups in Israel and even religious groups who believe what the Nation of Israel is doing is wrong. Anarchists against the Wall is one such group.

    Its a religious and "racial" war, they are both as bad as each other. They essentially have the same common ancestor and are both considered Semitic much to their governments denial.
    I have no problem with people believing in imaginary friends so long as they keep it to themselves and do not coerce such ridiculous beliefs and prejudices on other people. I believe we should be able to criticize religion regardless of how taboo and insensitive it may be because it is still a form of dominant hierarchy. I also believe their should be distinction between "Race" and Religion because religion is not apart of someones DNA. You can't say someones born a christian therefore christian is a race, so why should it apply to Judaism.
     
  4. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok, let's get one thing straight, there no such thing as race, it's fucking invention, a lie invented by racists. A racist don't hate a race, there no such thing, he hates what he thinks is a race, which can be just about anything cos it's all bullshit. I hate the USA, as a nation, particularly it's government, and admit that I bit bias against people that live there cos a lot seem to reflect the worst of it, and while this is prejudice, it not racism cos I don't think they a race, nor xenophobia cos it just one nation, though maybe you could call it culturism. I dunno if that word exists. Even so, I wouldn't say I hate them. Hating any individual just cos they part of some artificially imposed grouping seems like a real dumb thing to do. Anyway, jews not a race, but hating them might be racist, if he think they a race.
     
  5. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    It's just genetic traits, means nothing, would you call everyone with brown eyes a race? Doubt it. Human gene pool been distributed so much over time, we all fucking mongrels. Who cares. Yeah, most 'jews' I spoke to don't agree with the shit the state of Israel does, same as I don't agree with what UK state does. We all individuals and anyone that thinks otherwise is fucking idiot.
     
  6. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Punkmar77 explained it well enough above your post. It is a thin line. You don;t understand it and thats fine, dont pretend to be a know it all on the subject. Also, christians have never been purged and assaulted as much as the jewish people have. Christianity is a chosen religion. Judaisim as a race is not chosen. Again you dont understand the race of judaism, so it isn;t gonna make any sense for me to try explaining it.

    I was born in America, that by default makes me an American, I reject the values and connotations that come with being an American, but it does not change that fact. If someone decided to kill all americans, it wouldn't matter how much i hate the label, or the state, the oppressor would want me killed nonetheless. Obviously Hitler saw Jews as a race, which is why he did those experiments on them, seeing if he could change their eye colors and such. To those nazis, it wouldn't matter if they were born to jewsish families and told the nazis that they rejected judaism, they would still have been rounded up and thrown in concentration camps. Again, to say judaism is 'just a religion' is not accurate or right. Saying it is a culutre or heritage would be closer to what it is. I still say it IS a race. But there are Jews who are jewish by faith alone and not through breeding.
     
  7. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Agreed

    Alright if we agree with that notion(the one above) and followers of the Jewish faith believe they are the chosen race of god (gods children) then they therefore may or may not believe their are inherent faults in other races? Such as the notion floated by most religions that you need to believe in God (specifically 'our' god) or else your doomed to eternal damnation. Obviously its not quite that simplistic but if you read through the bible (great science fiction by the way), it contains endless accounts of racial genocide, most often perpetuated by the sons of Moses (author of the Torah).

    Its not nice to make assumptions on people like that. I want to have a genuine conversation about this subject without being patronised.

    Hmm, I will be honest and say I don't have any solid evidence or statistic (nor I expect anyone does) to refute the above but Christians (particularly Catholics) have copped it tough throughout history as well: Roman suppression of Christianity up until Constantine, Northern+Southern Ireland conflict, Crusades, Reformation etc. Irrespective of a numerical figure the most abhorrent occurrence in recent times was the Holocaust and all due respect to the Jewish victims, the holocaust should perhaps not be an viewed exclusively as a Jewish tragedy as its estimated 11 million people from various other groups the Nazis didn't agree with perished in a similar fashion.

    I will accept what you said a little later about it being cultural heritage. The racial term Semite, is used to indicate a group from a geographical area descended from a common ancestor including Arabs, Hebrews, and Assyrians, its essentially an umbrella term. Jews happen to document themselves as the race of God as back in those days, no body had any concept of evolution or how related they were to each other. There are numerous Jewish break away religions who clearly racially don't identify as Semites: Rastafarian's, Falasha, Bnei Menashe and Lemba are just a few. They genuinely believe they are descended from Abraham in some way and identify as Jews.
     
  8. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Just cos they might label you as that don't mean you got accept the label. I born in UK, baptised catholic, and I reject both, hate both. I hardly spend any time there any more. I got a passport with British Citizen on it so I free to move around, but the fucker does not own me.
     
  9. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok my bad, i overreacted a tad, but you are starting to seem less opinionated then i initially thought on the subject, so it wasn't fair to single you out like that.

    Yes I heard in church years ago that Emperor Nero Liked to dip christians in wax, and burn them like candles. To me that is huge differentiation though, because no one is born 'christian.' You must be old enough to accept the lord as your savior to properly use the term, though again that may have trickled down through history in connotation. My point was that Jewish people feel they are born as 'the chosen people,' whatever the hell that means... (yes I am aware of what it means bot in theory and supposed to mean in actuality, but I'm sure it is still open to interpretation.) So I feel a little less sad for the christians who died for revealing their faith as opposed to the jews (as well as gypseys, homosexuals, etc.) who died in the holocaust because of what they were born into. And as far as christians who died during the crusades.. their own damn fault if they were dumb enough to declare a religious war in the first place. I feel no sympathy to them whatsoever, but I do towards the non christian victims they futilely fought against. I don;t know about you, (not you specifically, but you meaning in general) but a good way to turn me aginst ANY set of beliefs, morals, etc is to try and force me to be that way.

    As far as the american or nationality label, you are right, and I do not consider myself an American, but i useed that as an example to be compared with the jewish people and other groups labeled and killed during the holocaust. You and I may not see it as something to hate or kill someone over where they were born, but someone could use it as justification and we would not be able to explain that we really aren't nationalistic of whatever country we are born in or citizens of to our oppressors. A good opposite example is how in the USA even Mexican citizens are always being labeled as Mexicans. Or labeled as Illeagels. and that isn't right either.
     
  10. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    We're splitting hairs when it comes to the relevance of the word 'race', for all reasonable and scientific purposes you two are right there are no races but the Human Race and that has been proven genetically.....but there are different cultures of humans and that's where the word 'race' comes into play. In layman's terms, race = culture + predominant genetic trait.
     
  11. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    That depends are you of Ashkenazi or Sephardic lineage.

    Ashkenazi are from Eastern Europe and the rest of the Europe in general.

    Sephardic Jews are from Spain, Middle East (Yemen, Morocco...etc) and Ethiopia.

    There are differences in appearance and ethnic traditions to a certain extent and language varies. The Ashkenazi traditionally spoke Yiddish for the last thousand years (my equal first language to English). The Sephardic Jewish lingua franca was Ladino which had mix of Spanish/Arabic/Persian/etc in it.

    It's on both sides of my family (Polish Jews and German Jews), I was brought up in a secular household, my mother is an Atheist, my father and myself don't bother with any of it but I wouldn't start throwing anti-Jewish stuff about the place or I will get nasty cos it is my background and heritage that we are talking about here.

    I say anti-Jewish instead of anti-semitic because SEMITES are supposed to be descendants of SHEM who funnily enough come from THE MIDDLE EAST!!! So if there is anti-Arab rhetoric thrown about it is also anti-semitic.
     
  12. QueerPunk

    QueerPunkExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Anxiety the reason why you don't seem to feel as much for the Christians who died under the rule of Nero as much as the Jews and others who died under the Nazi death machine is for the following reasons.



    Emperor Nero came to power in........ 51AD


    WWII & the Holocaust......... 1939AD-1945AD



    Difference in time helps. The more recent events (compared to Roman Era) are more raw to people today than the persecution from a dead civilisation.
     
  13. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    especially when there are still holocaust survivors alive...
     
  14. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nah, it aint just that. Christians have caused far more suffering over the last two thousand years than jews ever did.
     
  15. ryan1980

    ryan1980Experienced Member Experienced member


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    I'm a devout atheist so I find it aborant that Jewish people believe in God, no matter what their beliefs in detail are. Semitism speaks to ethnicity, not race. Judism, as with all RELIGION is meant to be all inclusive and that forms the structural basis (Synagogue, diet restrictions, ritual etc.) The heritage comes solely from within that specific structure and is melded with geographical norms. A high society New Yorker who is Jewish may share structural contraints with someone from eastern Europe but culturally would be vastly different.

    I could care less about the cultural implications with regard to semitism as a whole but, Judism, as someone above has said is still religion and thus hierarchical. You can eat as many motzah balls as you want and believe those habits to be of utmost importace. Fine. I can't stop that from hapining and wouldn't want to, but when they start to speak religiously about things that they understand as "fact" tbut only have lore and to support them, then I critique; and harshly. Go onward with whatever cultural habits you want, I simply want those habits to be rooted in logic and not myth.
     
  16. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    While you do make some good points, my family considers themselves Jewish and most of them do not believe in god. I know other jews also who are agnostic or athiest but proudly wear the jew label. Again it's splitting hairs, maybe some of you haven't known many openly jewish people, and maybe you have, they are all different. But no one has convinced me that Jews aren't a race. And I don't want to give off any impression that I think jewish people are infallible, because i very much do not,but i still get mad when my so called friends make jew jokes, or even call someone a jew meaning it to be an insult. (like when someone says 'don't jew me' when splitting a bill or check, etc.)

    The heritage thing is important to people. Maybe we need a thread to debate whether or not it is acceptable or should be erased. (please don;t debate it here, start a new thread for it if you see fit.)

    On a semi unrelated note my sister's childhood best friend recently became a rabbi, and SHE still smokes pot and parties. (yes a female rabbi.)

    Also a lot of jewish congregations openly accept homosexuals. But among older jewish people (like my grandparents) there is still a lot of intolerance towards other races and cultures.So again, i stress that i don't see jewish people as being perfect or even ideal. just that there seems to be a lot of ignorance towards whether they are a race or not. And still no one has commented on my thoughts of Hitler's view on them being a race more then a religion.
     
  17. ryan1980

    ryan1980Experienced Member Experienced member


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    I think Hitler was wrong to conclude that Jews were a race and simply used it as a scapegoat for butchery. Again, I believe Jewish endogmy is responsible for much of the jewish "race" debate.
     
  18. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yeah, Hitler was a racist.
     
  19. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    LOl possibly the best thing ever posted here :lmao:
     
  20. Ivanovich

    IvanovichExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yeah, and its fucking amazes me that the people fell for all his bullshit, cos he not tall, blond hair, blue eye, not even German. Ok, in danger of being a bit culturist/racist against germans, but I know this guy that lived there couple years, he said they well weird, they obey rules even when they know they wrong, or don't make any sense. Maybe that's it.
     
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