Loading...
Welcome to Anarcho-Punk.net community ! Please register or login to participate in the forums.   Ⓐ//Ⓔ

Anarchists on welfare

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by Tom Pirate, Jan 1, 2013.

  1. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    577

    0

    5

    May 25, 2012
     
    I can't really see how those two make sense in conjunction, but hey..

    I thought a big part of this was creating a community, mutual aid, solidarity, etc, but apparently its just a new form of"survival of the fittest".
    Even animals take care of each other dude, and I've been playing anarchist all along.
     
  2. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    965

    0

    0

    Aug 11, 2011
     Mexico
    HAHA good answer, what part of the world are you in?

    I live by the border of the USA and Mexico and see two different worlds as people survive with food stamps and without.

    Fuck i remember talking to someone and they were telling me about all these cats in the hood (mexico) meowing at night and then over a time they stopped meowing, and fuck we were thinking people were catching them and probably eating them to survive. And then i step into the USA and some "anarchist" talk about what ingredients are in the food they are getting with food stamps. And i think to myself fuck...
     
  3. THEBLACKNOVA

    THEBLACKNOVAExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    965

    0

    0

    Aug 11, 2011
     Mexico
    <3 :anarchism: <3

    D.I.T. = Do It Together

    I would share what i have with you kad budu gorjeli gradovi.
     
  4. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


    5,434

    78

    621

    Nov 13, 2009
     United States
    Look here lifestyler, you have no clue whatsoever about how I have lived or done in my life to quantify it with a ridiculous statement about living homeless to learn "the hard way" so far you have been here to do nothing but troll and basically talk shit...if that is your goal, this ain't the place...keep pushing.
     
  5. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradoviExperienced Member Experienced member


    97

    1

    1

    Oct 23, 2012
     Serbia
    dont jump into conclusions, bro. im also for this stuff, but it makes sense only inside of community, which we still dont have.
    i also dont like many things that life gives me but i rather choose that than isolating myself from reality (which means im fucked sooner or later, because you have to face it at one point).
    if anarchism is about liberation, your ethical values will not help you much in that. the system will never let us go without big mess. practically, it means that most powerful weapon against the system is sacrifice.
    sacrifice hits system in the heart. because the way our society is organized is just the opposition of that. society tells us how individual is most important and feeds our egos all the time. we basicly remain infants for the end of our lives.
    this, again, doesnt mean you shoud become suicide bomber or something like that. anarchism is just a game with the beast. like game of chess. who is more smart wins. time for biggest weapon will come. soon.
    meanwhile we can read some books.


    food stamps or cats??
     
  6. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    577

    0

    5

    May 25, 2012
     
    Well I'm sorry, but you did say you don't give a shit about sick people and "why should I give a fuck". I think your way of thinking is quite self-centered too.
    Okay, and by that you mean we will plunge into indefinite chaos? Because our ethics are a product of our system, and without the system we instantly become complete nutjobs? Or am I getting it wrong? I seriously don't know if I got you right.

    I'd go for cats, you can trade cats for anything!
     
  7. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradoviExperienced Member Experienced member


    97

    1

    1

    Oct 23, 2012
     Serbia
    @nclpw,

    theres no much point of conversation if you dont acknowledge the statements and arguments of others.
    i clearly said struggle makes sense only inside of well-organized community. were still far from reaching this goal. until we reach it, things dont make sense too much.
    im very anti-self-centered, much more than you think. its just that you dont understand and dont connect everything i say. be patient and dont jump into conclusions easily.
     
  8. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


    5,434

    78

    621

    Nov 13, 2009
     United States
    :lmao: nclpw is a womyn
     
  9. bodhipunk

    bodhipunkNew Member New Member


    4

    0

    0

    Jan 5, 2013
     
    I think this quote from "Neither State Nor Market: An Anarchist Perspective on Social Welfare" by Steve Millet is quite fitting.

    Accepting foodstamps doesn't legitimize the state, nor does its endless bureaucratic redtape undermine it. Social welfare has always been associated with empowerment, regardless if its provided by the state, markets, or (hopefully) in more democratic and participatory ways.
     
  10. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradoviExperienced Member Experienced member


    97

    1

    1

    Oct 23, 2012
     Serbia
    this sound great but never works in practice.

    i forgot, sorry!
     
  11. crustybeckham

    crustybeckhamExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    361

    2

    13

    Jan 22, 2012
     
    I must say I didn't really expect to read bollocks such as "if you are a real anarchist, you shall not be on welfare".

    We are being ripped off every single day by the state and the economic system it provides shelter for. There are taxes on everything. When you work, a part of your wage goes to the state. It is the same with your rent and every single item you buy on the legal market. Basically, you are giving money to the state all the time. When you find yourself jobless, the welfare you are getting is only a fair return. It is not a privilege, it is a right that was won with sweat and blood. I know the state uses the welfare system to make us dependent and apathetic. It is just another means to buy social peace. But still, most people on welfare don't have much choice but to take the money if they want to survive.

    Saying that proper anarchists don't accept anything from the state is all very cosy - while still giving it money though - but that is too far from my reality, too detached from actual living conditions. Finally, I don't understand why you would want to work an alienating, thankless job for a boss who will get richer thanks to you rather. That you have to do it is one thing, but that you are willing to do it in the name of "economic independence" (independent from whom? The boss is still the one in charge of everything) baffles me and I can't help but smell the foul stench of Victorian morals here and there.

    It is quite an interesting thread to read nevertheless.
     
  12. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradoviExperienced Member Experienced member


    97

    1

    1

    Oct 23, 2012
     Serbia
    biggest problem with your argument is that state doesnt give you its own money - its actually money which other people contribute to social benefits, which comes out of their salaries... bastards in power know very well how to keep all their money for themselves, and thats why they are more and more rich every day (apart of this they obviously still some of it from us).
    the system in which all of us are born into doesnt give us much choices. the only good choices are those we have to make by ourselves, which can come only with great struggle and sacrifice. on the begining of this is economical independence from the system. inside of it there is just no any possibility for liberation. because system is not so stupid to leave such an option.
    this is why i would rather choose good-payed job than just taking least-troubling way.
    and not all jobs are bad. theres many options where you can make money and still do good things. how about producing food (what is my occupation)?
     
  13. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    577

    0

    5

    May 25, 2012
     
    All good!

    To me, being on welfare isn't the least troubling way to do things. The easiest way is to be a well adjusted citizen, get your university education and a well-payed job. But this is northern/western europe. As far as I remember, you don't get welfare where you live, so of course you have to get a job and being on welfare probably seems really easy to you.
    They don't exactly throw money at you here. There are a lot of homeless people that chose to be homeless because the options the system gives them are worse than having to live in the streets.
    Whether you have a job or are on welfare doesn't make you more or less of an anarchist, its your levitation skills that matter.
     
  14. crustybeckham

    crustybeckhamExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    361

    2

    13

    Jan 22, 2012
     
    What I meant is that it is through the taxes that everyone pays (directly or undirectly) that the welfare state functions. So basically, everyone contributes on some level and in fact, in France, a portion of your wage is taken out and kept in case the company (or whatever) goes bankrupt.
    Well-paid jobs are not really an option for me at the moment to be honest and if I could get one, I would probably take it. Living on the dole is hardly a walk in the park. You have a lot of appointments (sometimes once a week) and shitty workshops you have to go to (I had to spend the summer here because I had to go to weekly motivational workshops). And I am not one of the unlucky one because I have the unemployment benefit (70% of your old wage) but many people have a benefit that corresponds to the very minimum a person can survive on (in the strictest sense of the word) in France.
    A wise man once said that not all jobs are bad but that work (as a system) will always sucks nevertheless.
     
  15. punkmar77

    punkmar77Administrator Staff Member Admin Team Experienced member


    5,434

    78

    621

    Nov 13, 2009
     United States
    What makes a person an anarchist is to be an active participant towards achieving anarchism, being on welfare or working for a living doesn't disqualify anyone from working towards anarchism, however I personally have an issue with lifestylism... but that's my own personal hangup, crustybeckham mentioned an air of Victorianism and I suppose their is some truth to that, but only in the correlating crossover which happen to be coincidence, anarchism is hard work, activism is hard work, I can't help but feel discouraged when some people that describe themselves as anarchist do nothing but subsist off of the charity of others without ever attempting to put in a fair share of effort or work, and the fact that society works the way it does allows some to be this way. If we as a global community didn't exist how would they ever fend for themselves? Social safety nets are a good and necessary thing, and even in a purely anarchistic society mutual aid would be tantamount to a successful community, however cultivating the belief that somehow this is an anarchist lifestyle unto itself, is to me at least, quite harmful to the movement as a whole and completely losing site of the anticipated outcome.
     
  16. CrustCat

    CrustCatActive Member Forum Member


    49

    0

    0

    Nov 12, 2012
     
    I wonder if some just have a romantic idea of anarchism and can't understand the obvious connection (not referring to anyone specifically, just discussing this statement.)
    I personally think it's important to be self reliant, which means having an understanding and respect for the earth without raping it's limited resources. Yes, this may mean no more "give me convenience or give me death" attitudes. We will have to learn simple skills that some of us never had a chance to learn (cooking, sewing, making medicine/vitamins, etc.) It won't be glamorous. There's going to be a lot of work, which probably doesn't sound fun. Surely, no one thinks its going to be easy on the other side. Will it be worth it to give up the 'good' features of our current system to acquire the 'bad' features of independence? I think so.
    I guess this conversation shows that we will not always be united, and even if anarchy is achieved history will most likely repeat itself due to inner conflict, Animal Farm style.
     
  17. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    577

    0

    5

    May 25, 2012
     
    Self sustainability and farming has nothing to do with how you make money, I really don`t see the connection. And that good vs. bad features of the system is kinda bs, all the good things like welfare and healthcare will hopefully still be in function one way or another, there will always be people that aren`t able to work, and they`re just as entitled to eating as you are.
    Working in a fast food joint aint very anarchist either.

    However, I agree that lifestylism is stupid and would destroy the movement if it ever caught on(I haven`t really encountered anyone like that yet).
    I don`t think its ever going to be a real problem, the ones that see it as a lifestyle usually drop out after a while, no? Or are probably generally less/not active where it matters. Jesus, I really don`t get why an anarchist with a job would be better than one thats on welfare. Its not how you live, its what you do for the movement that matters. You can be trve as fuck and live in a fucking tree for all I care, if you`re not active in the movement you`re not doing shit for it.
     
  18. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradoviExperienced Member Experienced member


    97

    1

    1

    Oct 23, 2012
     Serbia
    "who wants to create new world must bury the old one first." (german proverb)
     
  19. nclpw

    nclpwExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


    577

    0

    5

    May 25, 2012
     
    okay, so in a new world you would have to forget absolutely everything that existed in the old world? i don`t think that proverb is to be taken literally..
     
  20. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradoviExperienced Member Experienced member


    97

    1

    1

    Oct 23, 2012
     Serbia
    we cant bury what we truly are. just the actual system of values and norms, which is wrong, and keeps us from reaching freedom. and we have to destroy it to the ground, not to live on its ruins.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Anarchists welfareForumDate
WILDCAT: The comic for Anarchists who can laugh at themselvesEntertainment and off-topic discussionsAug 2, 2019
Call for solidarity: another wave of arrests and torture against Russian anarchistsAnarchism and radical activismMar 26, 2019
Retirement for Anarchists?General DiscussionDec 17, 2014
How did you guys become anarchists?General political debatesJul 20, 2014
Anarchists from Petrozavodsk, Russia were kidnapped and seriously injured by unknown people in masks.Anarchism and radical activismMar 14, 2014