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Anarchists and Remembrance Day

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by JBastard, Nov 10, 2011.

  1. JBastard

    JBastardActive Member Forum Member


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    Nov 9, 2011
     
    Seeing as tomorrow is 11/11/11, and the UK recognises this as a day of remembrance (Not sure if it's observed anywhere else, fuck my ignorance), I was wondering what people think of this whole thing? I know Anarchists are opposed to the army and have been involved in anti war protests for as long as they have been happening, but it still doesn't change the fact that a lot of young, mostly working class people died. Both in the western armed forces and their victims.

    I probably don't see it in the same way as most people standing in silence tomorrow, but I certainly wouldn't want it disrupted.
     

  2. John the Shorts

    John the ShortsActive Member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2011
     
    Why not wear a white poppy?
     
  3. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Who cares. It's just a date on the calendar.
     
  4. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    it's far more than just a day:
    so the murderers who sent off hundreds of thousands to their untimely death in the trenches declare a remembrance day to make their victims the heroes of country and people?
    maybe it eased the pain of those who actually lost someone during the wars - but now i think the occasion is just another event to keep up patriotism and nationalism - and that deserves kind of a special attentions each time they stage their dishonest poppy flag waving... :ecouteurs:

    somethings to remember:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_World_War_I
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Arm ... %281917%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89taples_Mutiny
    but i guess they won't make official celebrations... :ecouteurs:
     
  5. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Ok here's a more serious answer.

    Actually, many serious anarchists including Kropotkin supported the WW1, so it would be contradictory to say that today is a day anarchists should celebrate their opposition to war. See the "manifesto of the 16".

    BTW, i am not supporting this manifesto, just saying. But we must replace things in historic context. For example, even if you guys are anarchists, if we were in 1944 would you protest against war on nazism !? Sometimes it is better to just stay neutral because even if you can't support something, you can't stand against it because it would be counter-productive.

    More info:


    Actually, what we should remember today is what our anarchist comrades did on november 11st 1887 when 8 anarchists were executed at Haymarket Square

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair
     
  6. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Strongly seconded and we did it here arounds with remarkably success this evening,
    BUT:
    Sad to say, but our beloved black artillerist made the direst mistake of his life - and "many serious anarchists" (15 all together, some 100 came up later later) signing the manifesto - only to be called "Anarcho-patriots" by the entire european and american Anarchist movement, especially the swiss, spanish and italian Anarchists ran storm against ol'Peter and his personal fan club, amongst the later such illustre characters like christiaan cornelisson, who led the french CGT in kinda "burgfrieden" between the french state under raymond poincaré and the trade unions - the same bullshit the germun social democrats managed with kaiser willie II - talk about "german idiocy"... cornelisson called himself "syndicalist"...
    shame, shame, shame - the bolsheviks & even leo trotzki were right...
    http://libertarian-labyrinth.blogspot.c ... -1916.html
    http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/Ency ... esto16.htm
    and it looks like this:
    1914 the french wanted revenge for the hammering they suffered 1870/71, ending with the loss of the Elsass, the brits were anxious to loose their domination at sea - the germuns wanted colonies too after coming late all the time - russia and austro-hungary were already dying and seeking some release from their death-throws:
    The war in europe was already cold between 1905 and 1914 - it just needed a spark to light up the powder keg of entente and central powers - boom!
    Kropotkins accusations of the german workers are completely wrong - like the french and brits they opposed militarism exactly until august 1. 1914 - after that they followed their socialist leaders with a hooray to the recruitement offices, each of the imperialist states was building up since decades and constantly preparing for war (just research the expenses per state on armmament between 1905 and 1914) - and - except for the blind anarcho-patriots - each of them was an enemy of the international working class - just research the history of labour struggles and troubles in the colonies of the time...
    Reading the manifesto, Kropotkins anti-germun ressentments are more than obvious and his thrice cursed wish, that the winner of WWI would dictate the terms of peace became true in versailles - and backfired badly giving the germun nazis the main argument to call on old resentments and claim betrayal from the league of nations, easy steering into the next war...
    Besides we know what we are and that we would not only have protested against nazism (question of survival I would call it, so I guess we would have started around 1931...) it's more than odd to compare WWI as an (simple) imperialist war with "only" 17 millions dead - and the nazi-termination campaign between 1939 and 1945 leaving 70 millions gone with the wind and opening the door for the cold war and all that happend since 1945.
    And I don't really see the counter-productiveness in opposing the trench war, including the completely senseless battles of materiel ordered by the incompetent military elites, which led - except for Russia and germany/(ex)-austro-hungary - to nothing more than a stabilisation of power - especially the Irish sing songs about that to this very day...
    If ol'Kropotkin would have been out on fresh air a bit more, he could have noticed that his blind scheme of the circumstances in europe was nothing but a bad illusion, leading to a four-years-massacre of the european workers at each other throats - and just like his favorite entente, he seems to have been completely ignorant of the modern armament and it's consequences - sorry but I go with Errico Malatesta:
    http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Ar ... iples.html
    http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Err ... iples.html

    Hope senile noam c. never makes out with barracks obama and sends us off against al queda... :o
     
  7. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    GOBBLEZ! "the black artillerist" is my beloved Mihail Alexandrowitsch Bakunin, the inspirator of the collectivists virtues, the raging flame of the barricades and beloved of the impoverished and those on the margins of society who have escaped, been excluded from, or not yet subsumed in the discipline of emerging industrial work...in short, all those whom Marx sought to include in the category of the lumpenproletariat...
    how fitting to an aging "black prince", still clinging to his francophile youth-habits and far off the dire realities of flanders, verdun, the somme or the austro-hungarian massacres on the balkans...
    and the socialist/social democratic collaboration to the war effords... :'( :'( :'(
    kropotikin returned to russia after the febuary revolution 1916 - and thanks to his support for the continuation of the russian participation of the war the germans overran western russia - but kerenski offered kropotkin to become secretary of education in the provisorial government...
    at least ol' pjotr alexandrowitch refused and didn't made this mistake too... :'( :'( :'(
     
  8. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Yes, you are right, one of my "favorite" anarchist of all time - Errico Malatesta - wrote good texts against the Manifesto of the 16

    :lmao:
     
  9. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yesyesyes, and this inspiring candidate for the job of personal hero too had his darker sides, or didn't he went over the top a bit during the struggles against the marx-bros...???
    The wise lumpens sayez: Use yours own head and don't follow any kind of authority blindly, even if that means to say goodbye to black princes stumbling over their own shadow and artillerists firing stupid anti-semite barrages too... and btw: dogmatism is unpunx! :ecouteurs:
     
  10. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 19, 2011
     
    citizen g. - isn't there a slight difference between going over the top/becoming personally about serious political issues/dogmatism and karls intrigues all around the internationale - stupid and useless, kinda relapse into petit-bourgeois habits and mirrored by kropotkins sentiments about "german ideas" (as far as i remember the expression kropotkin used for the mess the marxist socialdemocrats and bismarck managed to achieve - but without wider consequences
    AND
    using ones legendary authority to send the flower of the workers movement off to kill each other on the fields of glory - just and only for the bosses gains?

    and where was kropotkins wisdom and morals concerning "the right of the victor" and the germans "original sin" - not to mention the consequences of the versailles treaty later stabilizing the german reactionaries and supporting their nationalist propaganda by giving some reason to it?
    anarchists like Landauer and Mühsam saw it coming even from their bavarian-backyard-viewpoint... and went straight and heads up to jail for not keeping their mouth shut about the real character of the war against german imperialist pipedreams and the damage it would do to to take sides...
    nice thing i found on all-wise wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_I
    http://www.textlog.de/tucholsky-kriegsschuldfrage.html - too bad only in german, but it's very good to describe the reaction of the "undefeated-in-battle", who never had to pay the price of being defeated but worked well with the "betrayal of versailles" prior to 1933 - and afterwards...
    care for an explanation? if you think of the "brumaire"-thingie - well, didn't the "working class" and kropotkins educated fan club exactly the same?
     
  11. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    there will be NO memorials and not a single one minute silence for possible survivors of wing-fights and ignorants of todays patriotic mess - the question was not how good everybody made his/her homework, but how to deal with the here and now! o_O
    seconded!
     
  12. butcher

    butcherExperienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    [​IMG]

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    local filthy reds under beds helped defeat two referendums for conscription during WW1 down here. :D

     
  13. nike

    nikeExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    yesss, comrade Mdm. Applez sir![​IMG]
     
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