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An idea

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by No_Justice_left, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. makhno

    makhno Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 29, 2009
     
    Anarchists have been considering this idea for over a century. It is a nice idea, and I must say it certainly appeals to me when I realize that there is essentially no anarchist movement in the United States at the moment.

    However, it will do nothing to stop capitalist wars, capitalist exploitation of the poorest people in the world, and the destruction of the environment.

    I think Behind Enemy Lines said it best "Where do you think you're gonna hide?" and "There is not a single place on Earth that doesn't belong to them."

    Of course, psychologically, this is incredibly stressful to say the least. We just have to put all our energy into the task ahead of us...
     
  2. Anom

    Anom Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    ...and doing so is probably going to work better if we don't have to do it alone but together.
     
  3. Ring Of Truth

    Ring Of Truth Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    "If the kids are united they will never be divided".

    It is true though we can be so much stronger if we have our brothers and sisters to support us, physically and psychologically. It is hard to keep fighting when you feel like you are alone.
     
  4. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    I think it would help - people would see that you can live alternatively, and it will be a part of land, people and therefore "markt", that is no longer part of the capitalistic system - Just as the anarcho syndicalist's planned it.

    A lot of people doing this, would pull great ressources out of capitalism, and make a better alternative, that people can choose to join - there by pulling more out of capitalism.
     
  5. makhno

    makhno Active Member Forum Member


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    1. It would have to work for all of society though, not just a handful of us. It has to work for poor people across the globe. Where are they going to get money to buy land?

    2. There is simply not enough resources or land left for it to work. Capitalists own it all, there is no place we can go. Plus, why should we have to work to reproduce systems of production and distribution? We have everything we need and everything we deserve right here, we just need to take it over and run it for ourselves.

    3. If we start to build up a large alternative, what is stopping the state from stepping in and taking everything we have? Anarcho-syndicalism has a form of self-defense - the general strike.

    It sounds like a nice idea at first, but I hear people talking about this idea a lot, and people have tried this throughout history, but I don't think it has gotten us anywhere.
     
  6. Anom

    Anom Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    Well, i'll just give up then and live the rest of my life eighter alone in their system or in total solitude in a tiny cabbin in the woods. Probably won't have to be for too long though i think, not like that. Wow, that'll really change the world!
    (Yes i am pretty tired and just a bit annoyed due to lots of things at the moment... can't not write this anyway)
     
  7. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    1. I agree, but i think that can be helped by letting everybody, who believes in the ideals, in. If you're to poor to buy land, you can still help others create the society.
    apart from that - buying is not necessary, you might occupy too. The problem is then you can be evicted, where as when we buy, the capitalistic rules of private property turn against themself.

    2. It's about taking what IS the capitalist's and make it ours. Even trough buying, we buy it, they get some money, but will never get any money from it again, because we won't let it be part of a capitalistic system anymore. The production and their cyklus of money will end, because noone will get the land back, or produce anything on that factory anymore. If many does this, we can trade trough each other etc. and create a better alternative, open for whoever capitalism doesn't work for (the majority).
    You can squat it too, but then you may be evicted. The important is, that these alternative communities must stand together and use limited, if any, ressources in the capitalistic system.

    3. The right to private property stops them. If we own it, they can't do anything trough their own rules.
    The squatted areas can be taken by the state, but it's a possibility if you're willing to disobey and fight for it. I know many are.

    It has worked for some - many places troughout the world has been squatted, we have a lot of people selling independent stuff from their small communities, using fewer money in the capitalistic system etc.
    Also, places like Christiania and such used to be like that - and it was squatted and everything, yet they haven't (totally) removed it. It have been there for decades
     
  8. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    Double post - sorry!
     
  9. makhno

    makhno Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 29, 2009
     
    You can say that you will let everyone in, but it will take a tremendous amount of money to provide food, housing, education, and medical care for everyone. 1.2 billion people live on less than a dollar a day. How are you going to let them into your commune? You can't create an anarchist communist society without expropriation of capital! You have nothing to work with, you have no way to provide for anyone.

    Two more points. First of all, if poor people could drop out of capitalism and go live off the land, they would have already? Why haven't Chinese sweatshop workers just let their jobs and go to live on the land?

    Secondly, imagine that this did work. You would have a large group of people living by themselves, without capitalism. Sound familiar? What about Native Americans? They were ALREADY living outside of any oppressive economy (feudalism, mercantilism, rudimentary capitalism, whathaveyou) until the colonialist juggernaut squashed them like a fly under a tank tread. Even if we COULD create this alternate society, capitalism would still exist, and it would crush us.

    I agree with this.

    We buy it with what money? Every day wages are falling. Every day we get poorer. Few people in this world can barely dream of accumulating any savings at all, much less enough to buy a factory.

    If people squat an area and take it, I support their efforts!

    How many people live in Christiania? It might be a good life for the handful of people that live there, but it does nothing for the billions of poor people getting fucked over every day.

    Also, these sort of efforts have many people pouring tons of their effort and time into them, just to see it all swept away by the state. What a waste!! What if we put all that effort into building a mass workers movement that is capable of standing up to the forces of capital.

    Finally, undertaking a project like this will consume all of your time and resources. I say your time is better spent building up and organizing working class organizations that use direct action against owners and landlord to win victories for working class people who are living paycheck to paycheck. Thus building up a working class organization that has a reputation for winning victories for working people.

    Please think about how our (extremely limited!) time and resources should be best used. Whatever your decision, I wish you the best of luck! :)
     
  10. Wonder138

    Wonder138 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 2, 2009
     
    you know what im sure it would work shit gets around in the punk world and there probably be alot of ppl show up i know im leavign my house when i turn 18 or sooner and i still dont know wear ima go but i planned on squatting so ya lets not just talk about this lets make it happen!!
     
  11. Anom

    Anom Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    Don't really think we need to put 1,2 billion people together in one place... Also i don't think all poor people in the world are anarchists and therefor everyone would possibly not want to live in an anarchist commune...
    But several smaller communes could so work (yes i know such exist, but not enough). Most people who would move in to these communes would also have perhaps not much but at least some money and some stuff, wich would make it way easier, with for example medical care. Plus their abilities to do different things.
     
  12. ASA

    ASA Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    u don't need money,it is just another means of trading
     
  13. Anom

    Anom Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dec 21, 2009
     
    true, true, just thinking like for getting started it might make things easier. not that the easy way is allways the way.
     
  14. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 19, 2010
     
    "You can say that you will let everyone in, but it will take a tremendous amount of money to provide food, housing, education, and medical care for everyone. 1.2 billion people live on less than a dollar a day. How are you going to let them into your commune? You can't create an anarchist communist society without expropriation of capital! You have nothing to work with, you have no way to provide for anyone."
    - The poor people can help create the society, produce, for everybody. I believe that they would work to create a better society, with no leaders to take the credit for their work.
    I'm not saying we are going to buy a field and get 1,2 billion people in one place, but one place at a time. Those anarcho-punks that would wish to participate can do so, or everybody else who believe in the ideals.

    It's true, Chineese sweatshop workers could have done it, but they are oppressed by a system who wouldn't let them. And apart from that, many don't dare face the change, before they've seen that it can actually work in reality.

    Apart from that, it's true, the natives were crushes, but that my point with private property. It their own rules protecting us.
    I don't see any problem in demonstrating and such even though you don't live in a capitalist society at home anyway.

    "We buy it with what money? Every day wages are falling. Every day we get poorer. Few people in this world can barely dream of accumulating any savings at all, much less enough to buy a factory."
    Many people saving together. The point is, that we start out with little land, create for us self. Build our own stores and factories, giving to each other, not buying big factories. We can create something better trough that. Little by little.

    "If people squat an area and take it, I support their efforts!"
    I would too! And those who can't afford any land can take it, and be supported by the others. If we all stand together, and get a movement going, it's easier and more effective.

    "How many people live in Christiania? It might be a good life for the handful of people that live there, but it does nothing for the billions of poor people getting fucked over every day."
    I've never talked about ONE big place for all. I think it will solve it self, because people wont live here there is no ressources or space. I mean a lot of squatted or bought communities uniting, to in the end become a functioning system, that some may see the benefits of and join.

    "Finally, undertaking a project like this will consume all of your time and resources. I say your time is better spent building up and organizing working class organizations that use direct action against owners and landlord to win victories for working class people who are living paycheck to paycheck. Thus building up a working class organization that has a reputation for winning victories for working people."
    I think it requires less of each individual the more people we are working together. Yes, it's time consuming, and i'm not saying that other kinds of actions isn't good. This is a experiment, an action to prove to people, that capitalism isn't the only answer
     
  15. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 31, 2010
     
    It's a fine idea, do it.
     
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