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It’s Official – Cell Phones are Killing Bees

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by ungovernable, May 23, 2011.

  1. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    We've actually had a few deaths here from "Africanized" bees in the last two years, the last one was a worker clearing brush on a ranch with a Caterpillar...I agree that they are not by nature killers they only really kill when attacked or threatened..also there seems to be a great amount of bee removal work here as well, as my stepson works at removing hives safely from homes and businesses and relocating them...and he's always working....?
     
  2. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    The documentaries i am talking about are in french :(
     
  3. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Again a bit from the all-wise wikipedia about the "Africans" - I don't think you will get rid of them in the southern US anymore, the species keeps travelling north 2 - 5 miles per day!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee

    Around here we have the same problem with wasps in densly human populated areas - the wasps migrate from the rural areas into the cities because of the better food supply (the common social wasps are omnivores, so the waste bins are a great resource for them) and they settle in the most incredible places, actually we have two or three tribes in the attic - everyone knows it and acts accordingly, so their stay is accepted, the kids love to feed them with sugarwater and watch them getting "drunk" on the stuff, a bit risky for the younger ones, but by now nothing bad happened.
    Many people aren't that tolerant and try to fight or destroy the wasps - that's the average reason for bad incidents, because the wasps are very defensive too, their venom is stronger than the bee venom and unlike them, wasps can sting multiple times because wasp stings have no barbs, so they don't kill themselves when they use their little extra.
    There are lots of people to hire for wasp removing, the cities fire fighters have a special squat doing the job expertly - too bad that they always kill the whole hive, that's why we decided to tolerate our tribes as long as possible and maybe remove them in the winter when they "sleep", maybe we'll find a safe place to "deport" them to too...

    There is "Radiation - or the science of risk" (ARTE F © Mosaique Films 2010 - Regie: Jean-Christophe Ribot) but I found only the original version produced for the french/germun TV-channel ARTE and I didn't DL'ed it by now, but J.C Ribot seems to have produced at least two other documentaries about the mobile-hype and the "unknown" risks of electro-magnetix and micro-wave technology. I'll post a link if I find a english version.
     
  4. Bonez

    Bonez Member New Member


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    Jan 22, 2013
     
    This Einstein quote seems to be apocryphal. According to Snopes at: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp and a "quick" search by myself there are no references to this quote before 1994. Other than a lot of blog post by people with an agenda I found it difficult to get a proper source to this quote.

    That aside and not to take away from the bee losing problem, If you have a link to any credible studies that show that mobile phone use, wi-fi, power lines, or electromagnetic feilds are the source of all our problems I would like to read them. I thought this issue was pretty much debunked. Weather one likes or dislikes mobile phones should have no bearing on the facts.
     
  5. PoshyX

    PoshyX Experienced Member Experienced member


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    i'm glad you commented on this, bones. i prolly never would have found this thread if you hadn't. :(
    i've been pestering my mom to cancel and get rid of my phone, but she won't listen. the response stems from the fact that she worries about me and the fact we don't live in the most pleasant area, but still... i can hold my own and 9/10 times i'm in a large group of people more than willing to kick ass, should the time come. i've always thought of cellies as a distraction and complete luxury. i don't really have a use for them other than getting in touch with my oregano distributors. and now that i'm aware of the bee epidemic, i have even more cause to try and convince her. she's become pretty aware of my growing sensitivity towards animals. i just went vegan a little over a month ago. :D

    it literally just occurred to me that i could use a payphone to call my oregano distros, or anyone for that matter. to be honest, i completely forgot they existed.
     
  6. Bonez

    Bonez Member New Member


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    Jan 22, 2013
     
    I'm afraid I have been misunderstood by PoshyX.

    I do not care either way, keep your mobile, throw your mobile away, I do not care. What bothers me about this thread is;

    1) "It's Official - Cell Phones are Killing Bees". This headline is scare mongering and inaccurate. There have always been luddites that blame allsorts of environmental problems on whatever tech comes along without looking at the data or credible research. In the article sited there was no way to follow up on the claims being made.

    For example:

    Who are these scientists, there is no traceable reference to these mystery scientists. In the first sentence it says "... may have found a cause ..." and "... may be to blame...". It does not say it has or that they are to blame. There is a possability but no hard evidence. What was the research conducted was it quantitative or qualitative? what were the controls used to correct for bias, and what are these "83 experiments" with the same results? The population of cell phone users and the impact on the bee population is a correlation. Correlation does not equal causation.

    The purpose of this type of article is to instill fear in the population.

    2) Using or misquoting Einstine is a tactic used by anyone trying to lend credibility to their argument. This is a logical phalicy (argument from authority) and its not even a confirmed Einstien quote. Even if he did say this, Einstine was a theoretical physicsit not an entymologyist or apiarist. What would lead one to believe a statement like this from Einstine? Why would he have some insite into a field outside his speciality?

    I am not saying fuck the bees let them die, what I am saying is this article sounds like others that claim to prove homeopathy works, ESP is real, a frozen big foot in a freezer, or vaccines cause autism.
     
  7. Bonez

    Bonez Member New Member


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    A little more research into this issue has revealed some things of interest. Ungove cited a blog post that referred to the original article that was in The Daily Mail, a British tabloid. Not the best source of evidence. After finding that, I sourced and read the original research article.
    Favre, D. (2011) Mobile phone-induced honeybee worker piping, Apidologie. Available at: http://genevalunch.com/files/2011/05/favre.pdf
    [Accessed on: 24/1/2013]
    I am not an Apiologist, so most of this article I do not understand, I admit it. But looking over the research is hardly conclusive. In fact it sounds like the way the study was conducted; placing a mobile phone underneath a bee hive is like a “disco” sound system with ABBA being played at full volume. If this would not cause you to swarm I do not know what will.
    The research was a pilot study; I will repeat that, “A PILOT STUDY”. It is not conclusive. All it shows is that something happened and allows one to further the body of knowledge.
    Listen, I love bees and if I found, conclusively, that every time I farted a bee died, I would try like fuck to hold it in. But a rumour or a misunderstanding of the research is not enough to convince me of the importance of “gastric pressure build-up in the protection of bees”
    My issue is not mobile phones or bees it is the propagation of misleading or inaccurate information bee-ing passed as “Truth”.
     
  8. IamMe

    IamMe Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    :ecouteurs: this is sad and frustrating, there are also people who think that these electro magnetic fields can actually make us ill as well as bee's. we are fucking DOOMED and its only a matter of time before we start seeing major changes on our planet. there aint no soulution to this problem apart from stop using mobile phones and other things that give of electro magnetic fields, but this aint going to happen people are addicted to this shit and think they cant live without it, but i would personally want my crops pollinated or a jar of honey rather a fucking device that got so much useless shit on it that i dont know what to do with it. Flower's of Phones its our choice.
     
  9. IamMe

    IamMe Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    i like your positive thinking and hope this is true dude. but electro firlds have been linked to cancer and shit like that, plus i think being around electric equipment to much makes me feel shitty.
     
  10. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradovi Experienced Member Experienced member


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    in 2006. when i was working on top of one building i noticed many bees falling from the sky, going in circle and soon die. in same year local mobile company expanded its network area by installing more antennas around. i guess at least for me this is enough proof, but it doesnt mean i will not search for more data on this subject.
    theres nice documentary called vanishing of the bees, im going to post it soon, check documentary section.
    for mobile phones issue, theres great swedish documentary called blood in the mobile, i think somebody mentioned here previously, i will post it also.
     
  11. Bonez

    Bonez Member New Member


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    I am talking more about questioning sources rather than bees. More about questioning ourselves and our beliefs and feelings about the issues we feel strongly about. Because of the previous comments I thought it seemed like a good direction to take it. There are two points to this:
    1) Correlation does not equal causation.
    2) The plural of anecdotes is not data.
    How sure are you that the bees circled and died due to the expanded networks? Was anything else going on environmentally at the time? Had there been a varroa mite problem that year? Pollution, insecticide spraying? I am not saying electro-magnetic fields/radiation did not play a role, I do not know? But a tabloid is not going to be a good go to source for information. However it will be a great source of misinformation.
    I am not convinced electro-magnetic radiation has a huge effect or is the root to all our problems, but I am open to being convinced, I look forward to sourcing “Vanishing of the Bees” and “Blood in the Mobile”.
     
  12. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradovi Experienced Member Experienced member


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    i dont believe much in science, i believe what i see.
    if i saw bees falling from the sky and dying on top of the building, in the middle of the city, it means there was not many things that could killed them up there, such us pesticides or whatever. mobile telephony theory sounds most logical to me, so i choose to believe it. ccd appeared exactly when mobile companies started to build antennas all over - you dont have to be mathematician to know how much is 2+2.
    i do use mobile phone because i need it for work. but i plan to stop it soon. for more direct action - i guess toppling off the antennas sends good message. they are usualy in middle of nowhere so theres not much chance to be caught. theres certain chemicals such as termite that can make metal melt easily.
     
  13. PoshyX

    PoshyX Experienced Member Experienced member


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    kad budu, what bonez has been trying to say this entire time (partly, for that matter) is that when it comes to "data" and observations, correlation does not equal causation. yes, you noticed that bees started going loco around the same time that cell phone antennae were set up around your city, but what does that prove? for all we know, it could be a coincidence. hell, it prolly IS a coincidence! there's no real hard evidence proving your theory. in fact, when it comes down to it, the only reason you feel cell phone antennae have anything to do with the dying bees is either you've heard about bee deaths being LINKED to cell phone usage (much like cancer being linked to playing video games or drinking out of plastic water bottles) OR you have a personal bias against cell phones. i would know, i have one myself and makes me tilt my opinion towards the cause in fact being cell phones. but this is irrational, as, just as bonez said in a few earlier comments, there are ambiguities in the article ungovernable posted.
    i think what bonez has been trying to make us understand is that it's great that these observations are being made, but you can't conclude anything without hard evidence. furthermore, if someone confronts you with evidence, it's practically your duty to question every bit of it. without a filter, we'd fall into the group of mindless dones which western society is greatly comprised of. but, then again, who am i? just some guy on the internet. ;)
    went off on a bit of a tangent. oh well.
     
  14. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradovi Experienced Member Experienced member


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    i dont care for science. i dont need it. science is one of biggest tools of state control.
    i know cell phone technology is bad, i dont need science to tell me that. even if bees would be fine, theres still people being murdered every day in congo so that we could speak on our cell phones.
     
  15. Bonez

    Bonez Member New Member


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    Jan 22, 2013
     
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe in itor not." - Neil deGrasse Tyson (his is an argument from authority, but it is true)
    Science is not a religion. Science has a set of checks and a system of self correction. If it is wrong it analyses itself finds the error and attempts to correct itself. It is not perfect but it is the best we have. Remember this thread started with a scientific study. As a scientist, Daniel Favre, would probably get off on the fact that we are discussing his work.
    The hardest beliefs to question are those held by onself. As a species we convince ourselves the things we see with our eyes are true, we evolved this way. But our strength is that we can see through the illusion and find out what is really going on, if we want to.

    This has been a good discussion
     
  16. Bonez

    Bonez Member New Member


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    Thats cool, then stop using your computer, stop playing video games, stop driving, stop going to the doctor when you are sick, stop turning on the lights at night when it is dark, when you want to listen to music you are using science, if you are in a band and playing electric stop because thats science. Anything with internal combustion, electric, hybrid, hydrogen, compressed natural gas, magnetic, hummmmm yep all science. Obviously I do not know you but as you are posting on this forum it can be assumed you are surounded by science in your every day life.
    Science IS a tool. What we use it for is another story. People use science for good and for bad (i.e. Deepak Chopra), it in it of itself is neither. The people are the ones you need to look out for. Science only gives us a set of answers, that could be disproven and changed with the addition of new evidence. It is not black or white and can reverse itself at any time.

    Getting back to the title of the thread:

    The fact is bees are dying. Why are bees dying? Apiologist, (bee scientists) conduct a series of test and experiments to try to find answers to this very serious problem. Some things will be ruled out, some things like pesticides, varroa mite, and pollution will be shown to have affects. As well as correlations however weak or strong will be shown, like mobile phone usage and electro-magnetic radiation. These may or may not in the future be proven to have an effect, and it will have nothing to do with how much you believe it or not unless you can counter the evidence.
    Again I do not know if mobile phones kill bees or not. I have read the paper and I am not convinced, but neither was the author, he found correlations not facts. His work will need to be reproduced and a body of evidence built. If it s true I will gladly give up my mobile, wi-fi, television, ect. Remember there is a body of electro-magnetic radiation research that says there is no effect. Are you saying it is a conspiracy? How do you know "THEY" are not trying to get you to become a luddite an give up access to the information and like minded communities that can be found on-line, like um anarcho-punk.net. oh my god I never thought of that this forum could be a tool of the state. shite could THEY trace my IP address, do they know who I am. RIDICULOUS.

    But I digress
     
  17. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradovi Experienced Member Experienced member


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    man sorry im not going into this discussion. the fact i dont like science doesnt mean i cant use computer. this is cheap discreditation. one day i will be perfectly fine without it, just like without hospital (i almost never in my life went there), electricity, cars or whatever.

    i dont know 100% sure whats killing the bees, but i know its peoples fault. be it mobile phones, pesticides or something else, it doenst matter at all.
     
  18. nclpw

    nclpw Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Does anyone know exactly what kind of electro-magnetic radiation is killing the bees? "Man-made electro-magnetic fields" doesn't really explain much.
    We`re floating on a huge rock in the milky way, we`re bound to get a load of harmful radiation or two during our lifetimes.
    EHE just like its cheap discreditation to call someone on welfare a hypocrite. Just sayin.
     
  19. kad budu gorjeli gradovi

    kad budu gorjeli gradovi Experienced Member Experienced member


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    it has nothing to do. i would never need computer or anything if i was born in some independent self-reliant society. but im not. one day i when i become i will not need it anymore. and i think its not fair to discredit anybody like this without even knowing anything about him. this is very close-minded and also little bit asshole attitude - dicreditation just fot discreditation.

    on the other hand, when i said you cant be anarchist if you take welfare money, notice how i didnt mention nobody. i was speaking in general. i dont like when discussion goes personal, what happens usualy in internet discussions.... still i mean it - anarchism and welfare (which comes from state) are too much in contradiction to each other that just cant be asociated together. you are one OR another, thats the only way.
     
  20. Bonez

    Bonez Member New Member


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    Jan 22, 2013
     
    This is exactly the point I am trying to make. Think about what you are saying. You feel or think the bee problem is peoples fault, but you do not know it is. This is not a pedantic difference. It is important in keeping misinformation and scaremongering at bay. Feel what you want, believe what you want, but if you are going to make statements like this you are going to have to show some proof. Unless I have totally misread your posts and you are an expert on bees, then I am sorry for doggin' you.

    I am not trying to discreadit you for the way you feel about things, I am afraid you missed my point. For one you are not the target, but when you post a statement like
    from behind a screen (one of the benifits of science) you set yourself up. I am not trying to discredit you or anyone for anything I do not even know you. Again the whole point is thinking about and questioning these issues. Especially ourselves.
    Do not get pissed off because I (a nobody) has questioned your convictions. That is often a sign there is some amount of blind faith.
     
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